EP50 One year and 50 Episodes - Lessons Learned

In the milestone 50th episode of 'Pondering Play and Therapy,' Philippa and Julie reflect on their podcast journey over the past year. They discuss how the podcast has influenced their professional practices, thoughts about play and therapy, and personal growth. They also recount interviews with various experts, including insights on unstructured play, the role of play in emotional regulation, and the importance of both structured and free play in child development. Additionally, they invite listeners to engage with the podcast and share their own experiences and ideas for future episodes. The hosts express gratitude to their guests and audience and look ahead to exciting new content for the upcoming year.

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Transcript

One Year and 50 Episodes of Play and Therapy: Lessons Learned

[00:00:00] 

Philippa: Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me, Philippa, 

Julie: and me Julie. Today is our 50th episode, and actually we've realized we've recorded it on the exact first anniversary of starting this in November, 2024. And by sheer coincidence or whatever you'd like to believe in, Philippa and I are sitting here, both of us in floral shirts.

For those of you who are listening, rather than watching, neither of us ever wear flowery shirts, but here we are today, both wearing flowery shirts perhaps to celebrate our 50th episode. And we thought this week we would have a pondering conversation about. How the podcast has affected both of us, impacted our practice, impacted our thinking about play, about [00:01:00] therapy, and ultimately about ourselves in our working and personal situations.

So Philippa, this idea of the podcast. From you. That's my understanding, my memory. Can you think back to probably about 18 months ago when you first thought I wonder if we could do a podcast? 

Philippa: Yeah, I think we, we meet, don't we regularly. You give me supervision for therapy and a little bit of play stuff and we often got into deep and it what I felt were really interesting conversations and.

I know people in the past have said to me, why don't you write a paper? Why don't you do this? And I am never gonna do that kind of never. It's just not who I am. The attention to detail that is required for something like that is just not, me. But I did think actually there's something about having these [00:02:00] conversations that I wonder might be helpful for other people to listen to.

So I said to you, shall we do a podcast? And. You said yes. Very tentatively, didn't you? 

Julie: Yeah. I think my first reaction was, no way, you and I are quite different characters. I would love to write a paper. I would love to write all this down and have it in a book, have it in a publication. But actually, yeah, it was the conversations that you and I often have in a supervision situation, a consultation situation.

Where the way things are set up for us primarily, it's you bringing your cases for us to look at and discuss together. And we do physically look at them because you video record most of your sessions with your clients. So even the other day we were thinking about. A family thinking about a [00:03:00] little one, and you were tussling with some thoughts about, oh is, this the way to work with this child?

Is this the way, let's think about it together. And we do always end up having really rich what we feel are very rich conversations and we disagree. Quite often. Yeah. Or we offer each other something to think about, and then the other can go away and ponder that, think about it, and then maybe the next time say I thought about that.

And I know your idea was for me to do this, but actually I went away and did that instead. 

And so the whole point for us about the PO, the podcast is to help everyone, encourage everyone who's listening. To think about their own practice, to wonder about why you do what you do. 

All of us are here.

Are here with some training. I've got my training. You've got your training. We've [00:04:00] come from different backgrounds. You from social work, me from education, we've both ended up as therapists working with children and to have these conversations to listen into a conversation. That may be about practice in a different way to the way I've been trained.

I find that really exciting. It's really made me over the last year really think about why do I do what I do in this room? I'm sitting in my play therapy room at home. Why? Why do I do things the way I do them? And noticing how that changes by things I hear, things I read. And very much the conversations Philippa you and I have together I'm very grateful for them.

Yeah. And I'm a quite a different practitioner. Of that. 

Philippa: Yeah. That you, yeah. And I am grateful. I think there's something rich in supervision and consultation and sharing thoughts and [00:05:00] ideas and it being a space that's judgment free in many ways. I know we've got professional ethics and boundaries and quite rightly we need to adhere to those, don't we? But as long as those are being adhere to, then actually the, the. space I think of supervision and consultation can be quite free to play with ideas that you're not necessarily fully in belief of or fully, but it's what is this? And that's one of the things that I often ask my supervised ease is.

Why did you do that? What was the purpose of doing that? What were you thinking when you introduced that, that game, that task, that item? What why? Why did you do it? And I think the podcast for me has really, helped me think about why, Sometimes, not just necessarily about my [00:06:00] practice, but about my community or about our world or about something different.

Why and what and where do I fit into that? And the biggest thing I was saying to you, I said before I come on, is I just have massive imposter syndrome. When I am interviewing people, when I'm talking to people, I just I am so grateful and so in awe of, everybody I've sp spoken to, and I often feel that I, aren't on the same level as them, and that's not the feedback I get.

That's not, that's about me and not about the people I'm interviewing or having a conversation with that I, I feel that in my. My everyday life really in my everyday practice most days, there is a point where I think somebody is gonna find out that I really don't know what I'm doing or I really aren't as good as they think I am, or I really still get that.

But [00:07:00] what the podcast has given me Is Is a wider lens to reflect through, and I've really appreciated that really. And I know we're gonna talk, go on and talk about kind of some of the specific things that we've learned, but for me that the biggest thing about doing this. My imposter syndrome hasn't reduced in any way, shape, or form.

So what about your nervousness about doing it, Julie? 

Julie: Yeah. I think when I start, when we started back in November, 2024, and yes, I was very reluctant to say, oh yes, Philippa, okay I'll do, let's do a year. I think we committed to doing a year and see how it would go. And I am still very nervous before I start.

I always go for a swim. So I've been for my swim this morning. So those of you who are seeing it on YouTube, if my eyes often look quite [00:08:00] ringed, it's not because I've got bags under my eyes. It's from the goggles that I've had on just an hour ago. I find moving my body. Being in water, walking to the pool, walking back, that allows me to prepare.

I need movement to think. I've always known that. I can't think sitting at a desk. I think by moving. So if I've got a difficult thing to think about, I'll get a bus and take the bus all the way to its terminus and back again. And by the time I've been moved by the bus or on a train. Then I've sorted out something I need to move.

I can't just lie on my bed and think. So that nervousness is less, and I think that's come from just the routine and the practice. Saturday mornings we are, often doing this. It's built into my weekend rituals now. [00:09:00] And primarily I think it's the feedback that we've had that says. Thank you for doing the podcast.

Not so much the thank you, but the it's useful. There are people listening and people are finding it interesting. Even if that interest is, I disagree, that's not what I do. I wouldn't do things like that, but it's sparking off interest and the fact that it's growing for me. To see. I love a graph. I love a number.

My students know that somebody gave me a coaster the other day. I love a spreadsheet. I do, I love a spreadsheet. Just see because that those numbers represent people and so I'm far less nervous doing it now. I've had a significant birthday and that's partly just made me go, ugh. What's the worst that could happen?

We've got [00:10:00] insurance. So I feel, yeah, the imposter syndrome probably around, it's there as part of my teaching, but knowing that there isn't one way to do this therapy thing with children, young people, that each relationship is unique. And what I learned through one client. Isn't what the next client needs.

So I'm often asking my supervisees a different question to you. Not, what did you, why did you do that? I'm often asking, what does the child need from you right now? 

What is this child communicating to you and how can that need be met? That's where the pondering comes in. For me, every session with every child is like starting again.

I've been practicing for nearly 20 years, but I still get [00:11:00] nervous starting with every client, every new parent, because it's a unique story and unique relationship. And if I ever get to a day where I feel I've cracked this therapy thing, I'm a brilliant therapist. I've got nothing else to learn, then I need to stop.

Philippa: Yeah. And I think 

Julie: to get to that stage, 

Philippa: yeah. I think that's one of the things that it the conversations with the people that, that we've had is that everybody is passionate about the work they do, however different it is. But the goal is to make play, to make therapy, to make Connection.

Higher up the agenda. 

Speaker 3: Yes. 

Philippa: For every day children, teenagers, young people, families, it's about how do we promote these things, play [00:12:00] particularly. Play is used in a way to connect, to promote, to support. So whether it's in youth justice, whether it's in disadvantaged communities, whether it's in therapy, whether it's in schools, it's using playful ways.

Yes, to build connection, to build regulation, to help people feel a moment of joy or relief or safety and, everybody that we've interviewed has been so passionate about that really and so committed to it in their own field and mindful of other fields, and that for me is just. I've learned so much about so many areas that I didn't know anything about really.

And those that's that's been a, real honor. And I'll go and I say, did you know? And like some of my family no. And why would I [00:13:00] know I'm a carpenter? Or, I'm a baker, I'm not gonna know that I'm a, but it. Fuels that fire of, oh my goodness, there's this that goes on in, in communities or there's like Play Nation.

There's Play Nation Scotland. Play Nation Island, play Nation England, play Nation Wealth. I didn't know those existed and what they did and, how hard they worked to try and get play spaces. In our in our communities, local communities for local families, and that's such an important place, isn't it, that kids can go out and play and there's a whole thing that does that.

I didn't know anything about that, and it's just so upset. And when you speak to the people that are part of that. Process part of those communities. It's just, amazing, really. I think I, I find 

Julie: So Philippa, out of all the, out of all the interviews you've done, and this year you've done the bulk of the interviews.

I think I've done four or [00:14:00] five. You've done the bulk of them. So you have met a whole range of people who. As you said, are not necessarily working within a therapeutic situation, but they're using play and playfulness, that playful attitude in their work. Can you pick out any that particularly have sparked your memory, that have influenced your practice?

Maybe that's two different questions. 

Philippa: I think it's hard because everybody that I've interviewed, I've taken something from, I think there are certain ones that maybe are more relevant to my practice that have really made me think so. So Marshall Lyles, I interviewed him about re and attachment.

He's based in Texas, in the us. And one of the things that he said that really, [00:15:00] resonated with me, that really made me think about why haven't I thought about that in that way before he almost. He just put it into words, which one of them was, is that I was talking about when he is working in re and where you get dysregulation within it and how does he support the transition from the therapy space back into.

School, the community. 'cause Marshall works with adults and, children. And how does he almost put them back together again? So they're not dysregulated, they're not all over the place. And he just said I, don't, because that's not my job. He said their feelings, their their emotions, their experiences have been squashed and squat.

I am. Paraphrasing really what my understanding of this is. But squash down. And haven't been validated. [00:16:00] And haven't been accepted. That's why they're coming into therapy. They're coming into therapy to explore some of these trickiness and along with that goes emotions and feelings. And I give they, this is what I'm saying.

Then they have this hour or whatever it is and we they start to come out. Why would you then push them back into a box and say, okay, they're only valid for this hour. And Marshall didn't say it in those words, but that's my understanding and that really made me think about yes, Why?

Why, what? Yes, that's true. That feels more genuine, really. But what he did say is, but then you have to be mindful of when you are gonna do tricky things. So he gave an example of a young man that he was working with, and he was going to they decided they were going to. Explore something that had been quite tricky in [00:17:00] this young man's childhood, and he'd come in and said, oh, I'm going on a date after this, a first date after this.

So Marshall had said, maybe today, then is not the day to do that exploration because you are go it might bring up something and then it might impact on your first date. So shall we do something different? So it wasn't about just freely doing it and letting everything go out go everywhere and disrupt and impact their life.

But it was about how, I suppose what I took from that was how do we help children? And for me children. Feel that there. Emotions are validated and valid and held and contained in, in all their lives, and not just in the therapy space. Now, that doesn't mean I'm gonna wind a kid up to the top and then sending him back into [00:18:00] school because that's not gonna be helpful for the child, but neither, I guess it made me think about actually that sometimes if they are a little bit fizzy or they are a little bit.

Sad or they are a little bit then actually that's okay. And it's, for me, it was about how do I have that conversation with parents and think about this might be happening. How can you do a protected space after therapy for half an hour, for an hour? So that they can themselves with their parent co-regulate, which is what we're trying to do how can they experience that co-regulation in almost a slowed, natural way, rather than it having to be compressed in this hour.

And that really made me think about my practice quite, quite a lot, really. Yeah I, thought that was really interesting for me. 

Julie: And I think that this, gosh, there's a whole lot not for today, [00:19:00] to think about beginnings and ends of sessions. Do we tidy up our sessions with the child at the end?

Do we put the room back together again? A bit like Marshall saying about putting the emotions back together again or not. I think there's, all sorts of thoughts around how to begin and end therapy sessions, especially for children and what they're transitioning into afterwards.

Especially if it's in a school when within five minutes they might be in a maths lesson. Yeah. And, what can that, how can that transition be, supported? 

Philippa: And it's how do we have those conversations? And that, was for me is how do I have these conversations with, their big people, really with their big people?

Whether it's a teacher, whether it's a parent, whether it's a support worker who's coming from a residential home. These are conversations that maybe we need to think. [00:20:00] I, felt I needed to be more mindful of. It really made me think about, that, that, that ending and. And the validation of those feelings, really.

And the importance of that. 

Julie: So the, doing the podcast for you is, really changing how you think about your practice. 

Philippa: Yeah, absolutely. Just talking to Hillary Kennedy and Margarita Blair about very little children and that thing about school readiness and, the bit that comes before school readiness and the accessibility to, to unstructured free play.

That has really made me think, and actually your interview that you did with Mossack, that re [00:21:00] is it? Was that 

Julie: Mosac? 

Philippa: Yeah, Mosac. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Philippa: That really made me, because he was really talking about a similar thing, but from a bang from Bangladesh, wasn't it? 

Julie: Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that has really struck me about doing the podcast is.

What was available for me as a child growing up many years ago isn't available in the way that yeah it's simply not available for many children, especially in a city now. And everybody I've interviewed, one of the questions I've asked right near the beginning of the interview is, where is playfulness in your life now as an adult?

That's really Oh, shocked some people. They've gone oh, And Mossek was one of the people who helped me think about gardening is his playfulness. 

And I've never thought about my gardening as a [00:22:00] playful activity, so it's changed how I garden. But I then asked each of them what was play like for you as a child play and playfulness?

And for everybody I've interviewed, they've all said something about being outside. Something about being not in adults care. Adults might well have been around, but they had space outside to meet other children. Relatives, not relatives and have free time and free play. And that's something I don't see a lot of anymore.

Philippa: No 

Hillary Kennedy talked about going on really big adventures with her siblings. Yeah. Quite young. And yeah, that, I agree that, 

Julie: but that's lost 

Philippa: unstructured free space. 

Julie: Scott, Sarah Lloyd. We, I [00:23:00] interviewed Sarah Lloyd, a wonderful interview with her, which I greatly enjoyed and again, helped me to think about the body and the nervous system and what was being communicated through the body for children and her joy in talking about her childhood and the freedoms she had with her siblings and others from, as you say, a very young age.

Being out there, being in, the outdoors and adults being available, but not immediately available. 

And I, live in, in, in a terrorist house and I, it backs onto other terrorist houses and there's a new family that seemed to have moved into a house. Partly backs onto mine and I wake up every morning at the weekend hearing little voices, and there are two little ones I take.

They must be about five and seven, possibly siblings, I presume they're siblings and they are [00:24:00] outside all day. Playing and I've been watching them play. They play, at the moment, they're just playing with the packing boxes that they've moved into the house with. Just the garden is full of packing boxes and a trampoline, and I'm feeling great joy watching those children now.

They are arguing, they're screaming, sometimes they're tussling over things. I can see them solving problems, creating stories, finding how their relationship works. And every now and again, a parent comes out to sort something out or fix something or calls them in for their dinner or whatever's happening.

But it's unusual. I'm, noticing it because it's unusual. 

Philippa: Yeah. And that, I think that fits into the interview I did with Greg Bottrell, who's written, can I Go and. Can I go and play? He and he talked about our inner [00:25:00] child and that just having boxes. He said that he got into this by doing scraps, I think he called it, which is just boxes of materials and helping children just play with stuff, and that actually bored.

And so many people have talked about boredom and Jasmine. We talked about play therapy, Jasmine Williams, she talked about the, importance of boredom and that then you can create from that, from the boxes, from a stick, from some material. You got this creativity, this imagination, this problem solving this.

All, these things just come from unstructured play, and that has really come through, I think, from so many people. 

Julie: And then that makes me think of the conversation you and I had about what is play therapy. It was a few weeks [00:26:00] ago, and I was talking about how often I get referrals for for children, especially in a school situation where the understanding from the school is this child can't play, so can they have play therapy and then they'll learn how to play.

So even situations where the client might be, I don't know, a little four or 5-year-old and the school is asking so who are the other children that can come along because this child doesn't know how to play, so can we do it as a group? And there are certainly interventions that would be very helpful for that, but that's not primarily what play therapy is about.

A lot of children do build up play skills in, their play therapy sessions, but it's, not a fix for children who've missed out on those play [00:27:00] experiences. But that's really struck me and actually brought a bit of sadness thinking about the clients that I see, I'd say in the 20 years that I've been seeing children for counseling or play therapy.

Their capacity or their sort of familiarity with story and play has really changed. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. 

Julie: I have a come in and they're really a bit stuck with they, want they're stuck with the materials in the sense that. They can only think of one way to play with them because that's the way they've been taught at home or school to play with that particular resource.

So I've got a big box of free Lego just, Lego bricks, old style, big box of Lego bricks. But some children will ask where's the instructions? What does it [00:28:00] make? And I took the, there were pictures on this box of various things, but I ended up taking the pictures off because children, them were trying to make what somebody else wanted them to make.

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Julie: And so I said you can make whatever you like with it, but they said, but where's the book that tells you what order to do it in? And of course, that is one way of. Playing with Lego, but in a therapy situation, it's about finding your inner resources, finding that resourcefulness, that agency yourself.

Speaker 3: Yeah, 

Julie: so it's been interesting talking to the people I've interviewed and hearing about their childhoods, which involved a lot of clay. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Julie: And all of them recognizing that the children they meet. Haven't had those experiences. So a huge sense of loss in outdoor play, free [00:29:00] play, non-adult led play. 

Philippa: Which makes me think then about the interview I did with Charlotte Jenkins.

And she talks about the nervous system and the fight flight freeze, but also they've got an app called Lummi Ano, which promotes those kind of play. So it gives parents it's for parents and it gives them ideas of play to help regulate. Building a den or doing a cotton ball bloats based on the Thera Play principles.

And parents can download it and if they can see that their little person's getting a little bit fizzy or something going on, it can help to guide them around play activities that might help with regulation or just engagement. And co-regulation and all those sorts of things.

Especially I think because we've lost play spaces. 'cause I guess like when we were arguing at [00:30:00] home, my parents would just say out. In the garden, go and call for somebody and you'd, go out and you'd run around. You might have a few arguments with people to get your little fizziness out, but eventually you'd find your way back and you'd end up in role play or football or you'd end up doing something, but.

Those spaces have gone that safety of, that's gone a as well, 'cause there's more cars, there's more the, when I was growing up, so you can't always have the outdoor space if you live in a high-rise flat or stuff like that. So things like. Looming and us help parents think about, okay, what can I do for my child in this space that's going, to use play to connect, to regulate to be, part of together, because.

Sometimes I think doing that very structured play can be frustrating for children 'cause they can get it [00:31:00] wrong. Because if it, says you've got to do it in this way, then that means it's right or wrong. Whereas if you are building a den with cushions and a chair and two old sheets, you can do it anywhere however you want, can't you?

There is no right or wrong way. And for children who struggle with. Kind of self-esteem or needing to get everything right or whatever it is, following instructions, following it, how it should be done can inhibit play, I think, and inhibit the bodiness of play. And you end up in your head and it's a very cognitive experience, isn't it, rather than.

Building a down, blowing cotton balls, blowing bubbles, all those sorts of things, which is much more, there isn't, you can just do it as long I'm sure there's boundaries, you can't hang it off your mum's best dresser with all the, whatever it is on, and you can't blow the bubbles on the kitchen floor 'cause you'll slip over.

But there's more freedom in it, isn't there? I suppose [00:32:00] 

Julie: then I'm also reminded of the interview I did with Simon Airy. So Simon talked about play and neurodiversity from his perspective as a neurodiverse man working in a primary school with Neurodiverse children. And he talked about, when I asked him how do where's playfulness in your life, Simon?

And he pauses and he thought, and actually sorting things, putting things in order, tidying a cupboard, sorting out his postcards is, a source of playfulness for him. And so high structure might have, certainly does. For him, and I think many of his children that he works with has that element of playfulness, of regulation, of connection with self.

So sometimes I think when we say connection, we're always imagining that's [00:33:00] with somebody else and often with an adult that actually we can think about regulation and connection with ourselves. How do I come back to myself? How do I have a conversation with myself? How do I notice what's going on in my own emotional state?

So thinking with Simon about how with the clients, the children he has, he's often given a plan, the school or the educational psychologist, somebody has written a plan for this child regarding their speech or their social skills, or. Some, element and how he always starts with where the child wants to go.

And I think that takes huge courage when, especially when you are working with a remit that says you've got this child for half an hour and you must work the tar, the targets somebody else has set the [00:34:00] targets, but actually he, comes at it with a huge compassion and respect for the child. To do what they need to do.

And then he weaves in the targets having first of all, established where the child most needs to go at that moment. 

So I was really interested to, to talk with him and to hear his perspective, but also to hear how he chooses to work with his clients. That isn't the expectation of the profess of the professionals who are in some way directing his work.

Philippa: Yeah, and I think I spoke to Dr. Charlotte Booth who she, we looked at the difference between structured, learning and free play in education. She had been a university lecturer on the teacher training course and a [00:35:00] Manchester university and kinda left and is now a nursery. TA and as a play hub in, in, in a local community.

A ta 

Julie: A teaching assistant. 

Philippa: A teaching assistant, yeah. So she's gone. And what she was saying was, is that the structured learning. Can overtake the free play, even though teachers and the staff want to do the free play, that sometimes the constraints can be very difficult. So what she was saying was is that.

At teacher training college, we look at free play. We look at how important play is. We help them really think about that. They then go into a school and she was saying personality wise, some people can stick and hold that free play. Others, and also it depends on the school and the resources and the [00:36:00] staff and all those sorts of things.

End up just following this very clear list and the free play. It is lost. And she was talking about, I suppose that bigger structure that bigger organizational thing impacting the everyday practices of people really. And I think our our need for outcomes.

That are driven by adults, which again, which is what Greg was talking about, it's an adult led outcome rather than a child-led outcome. Whereas what you are I guess what the conversation you had with Simon was, is we're gonna, we're gonna be child led for a little while and, we'll get to these other bits as we go along the way.

We know that we want them to be able to do these levels of achievement, but is it. Is it always necessary to do it [00:37:00] in this really rigid way? And that is a conversation. I think, again, when I spoke to Jade and Angela both who work in fostering and residential services, thinking about actually children's.

Diverse needs and how systems for some are great and they are gonna thrive and they're gonna achieve and that's gonna be great. But it feels to me that more and more children are out, are outside of the band of this structure really, that we've got in place and that there's lots of people finding very creative ways to.

To To support them really. And that really, yeah, that's one of the things about the diversity of people. We come across and I spoke to Peppy Hills, and I've actually done, it isn't released just [00:38:00] yet, but it will be either the end of this year so it might have been by this time comes out, but it's probably gonna be January.

A young woman a woman called Sarah. About cre. They both work in creative arts and how dance and movement and drama really helps that diversity, that communication, that that, that way of allowing children, young people and adults to create their own space, to create their own thing and learn and reflect within that.

I think. There's just some amazing creative people out there, isn't there? 

Julie: And when you think, when you were talking about the word diversity, that's the sort of big buzzword that's often around in trainings in every institution at the moment. But I, feel it. I can learn [00:39:00] about diversity and inclusion all those topics.

I can learn about the theories. I can learn. What's expected of me and all of that within my work situation, but actually doing the podcast and really thinking about my clients and my students in a much more reflective way, I think this year is I've become, I think, or am becoming much more curious about.

Similarities as well as difference. Sometimes I can spend so much time looking at what's different and respecting that difference that I often, I've realized miss the things that actually join us together. The things that are similar the, ways I do things, the ways I think, and also celebrating.

Sameness as well as difference. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: Yeah. [00:40:00] And for children, there's a real sense, I think developmentally, especially mid to late primary school, so age seven to 11, 12, a real sense of wanting to belong, wanting to do things in the same way as somebody else, a real. Passion for a club a membership card, even little clubs, gangs, things that are made up within the school or within the, locality being in the group or being outside the group.

Especially around year four I'm remembering as a teacher, especially girls and, maybe that's just my experience of falling in and out of friendships. And so while I'm thinking about diversity, I'm also thinking about what helps us belong, what helps us? Belong to this [00:41:00] community that seems to be emerging of even just through, in a small way, through this podcast community of people who are thinking about play 

Throughout the lifespan, not just in babyhood childhood adolescence, but thinking how does playfulness not something that's frivol frivolous, but how does playfulness. Span, span out through the whole, our whole lives to help us to survive, help us to communicate, help us to feel that we are part of something bigger than ourselves.

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. 

I think, 

Julie: yeah. 

Philippa: I suppose the last bit I just, I suppose I wanted to just think about was that we've also had some conversations about when. Life is hard and how playfulness comes into that. I [00:42:00] talked to Matt who was from capa, the child child against parent aggression service and Penny Willis, who does NVR Nonviolent Resistance.

And we've also talked, haven't we, about which is how we met Matt really about when there's violence in the family home from a child to a parent, really. And when. We've talked about rupture and repair, but when, it's bigger than, the everyday ruptures, when it, when actually living in a family home has more challenges and where play and playfulness can come into that and build those little moments of, connection and sometimes very, challenging, difficult, stressful.

Days, weeks, sometimes months, isn't it? And where the [00:43:00] support is out there. And and they were doing some great work around supporting families and thinking about families and, how that how the families need to be supported as a whole. And where that comes from. And I think that, in itself can be quite hard.

Can't. 

Julie: And that's reminded me of a very early interview. I think you did it with Vinny, the foster carer. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: Talking about how in her family, the she has many children coming in and out of the family. Some stay for a long time, some of their short term, but how. Play playfulness is a huge part of their daily rupture and repair.

Rupture, repair, and using playfulness. I was really struck by that because I don't often hear the everyday life of a foster carer. I [00:44:00] think you've got a lot more experience of that, so it was really helpful to hear her story. But I'm also thinking about an episode we did quite early on about when play isn't fun.

And play itself can actually be scary when play can tip from being joyful into something violent. And but also thinking about when for a child who's perhaps playing out a story. A scenario from their past. A, traumatic experience. I wouldn't call that play fun. 

So that is one of the things I'm very passionate about is not always associating play and playfulness with fun and joy.

Because I think a lot of play isn't that. And so I'm about to do a, [00:45:00] session with students next week, and one of the questions I'll ask and we'll, create a word cloud in the, lecture is I ask 'em to get their phones out. So immediately everybody's very excited. Oh, we get our phones out, do the code, and then words that you associate with play.

Every year, I've done it five times. Every time the word fun comes out as the biggest word in the middle of this workout 'cause most people have put fun. And then through the lecture, through the session, through discussions, we then talk about actually what is play throughout the lifespan. Is it always fun and because I think if it's only associated with fun, it can become diminished and frivolous and the extra thing.

Once the hard work stuff is done. So that concept in a school, which I know many of our interviewees have talked about is. [00:46:00] Play being used as the extra, it's the reward when you've done the hard stuff, rather than seeing play as an absolute human developmental necessity. And it isn't always fun.

It can be painful to play. 

It can be difficult. It can cause rupture as well as create the re the, opportunity for repair. So that, I suppose that's what I've come out of the year with as well is a, renewed passion for defining what play is. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Julie: And I don't have a definition for it, but I'm beginning to be a bit stronger about saying it's, not always this, it includes this as well.

Philippa: And I think that's a good, I think we've come round full circle, haven't we? In, that kind of play is used [00:47:00] and. In so much of our world and society and it should be. And it's not just about, like you say, that fun, that, that kind of frivolous, joyful kind of moment of, actually you've now done your homework or you've, been on this massive long walk, so now you can play it on the park.

Actually the walk could be the fun, the. Or, the play, and really should, the play come before the learning? Do we need the play to understand our own experiences, to process what we've been through? Do we and those, I think like you are saying, those. The processes are not always joyful and nice.

Those, experiences can be hard and traumatic and trauma and play can be one way that you can help make sense of that, whether you are 5, [00:48:00] 10, 15, or 35, and whether that's you are playing it out in the sand or you are role playing in it. Or you are just acting it out yourself at home. We all have those conversations in our head that you wish you'd said to the person that was really rude to you.

That is a kind of role play, isn't it? But it's not a fun, it's not you are, you might be mad or frustrated or hurt or anxious, but you are making sense of that experience by playing it out again and 

Julie: yeah, 

Philippa: thinking about it. 

Julie: Playing around with other options. I could have said this, I might have done that next time I might do this.

So that I'm beginning to get a sort of think about the difference between play, which to me is more an action involves perhaps an object or a doing and playfulness, which is more a kinda attitude that I might bring to lots of different [00:49:00] situations. I think we've got enough for another year of podcasts.

Is that 

Philippa: what we're saying? I, hope so, because I've got some, we've got some great guests lined up, haven't we? For the next yeah, for the next 2026. So we've and that is the other thing that I would like to say is just thank you for everybody who's listened, who's commented, please comment a bit more and listen and 'cause it really does help, but also.

For the people that say yes and come along and for the people who say, have would, why don't you go and interview this person or this person might be an interesting thing. All those are really helpful for us, aren't they? 'cause one is, it lets us know what people want, so lets us know. And also for the for the people that are coming on and having these conversations we are so grateful for their time, for their knowledge, for their kindness and [00:50:00] graciousness in sharing their experience and thoughts with us.

And we are totally honored that we get to do this. Really, 

Julie: it's a real privilege. And also to say if anybody's listening and. Feel they would like to be on the podcast, please get in touch with us. You don't need to run a business. You don't need to have written a book. You don't need to have a social media presence.

You don't need to have a big voice, but please. Offer your own thoughts to come on the podcast. I'm going to be interviewing a couple of past students about their research because they're doing wonderful work and I want that their work to be known. So please, if you've got an idea or if you'd just like to chat with us for an hour and press record on it, we'd be delighted to hear from you because that's what the podcast is about is how play is happening [00:51:00] in every day.

Life. 

Philippa: Yeah, absolutely. So thank you for 2025 and we will see you in 21, 26. So have a great holiday season, whatever you are doing, whether you are working, whether you are with family, whether you are traveling, whether whatever you are deciding to do. Have a great, time and we will see you in January, 2026.

Julie: Okay, bye.