EP45 School Anxiety: A Conversation with Claire

In this episode of 'Pondering Play and Therapy' with Philippa, guest Claire discusses the growing issue of school anxiety among children. The conversation explores the potential reasons for increased anxiety, including heightened academic pressures, the complexities of modern social interactions, and the unique challenges faced by neurodivergent children. Claire highlights the importance of early intervention and the role of schools and parents in supporting children through these challenges. Practical strategies for managing school-related stress are shared, emphasizing the need for empathetic communication, flexible solutions, and professional support when necessary.

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Transcript

School Anxiety, a Conversation with Claire 

Philippa: Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me Philippa. And this week my guest is Claire. So welcome back, Claire. You were on the podcast a fair few months ago now talking about mental health, childhood mental health cams. So we thought we'd get you back on and look at some more specific concerns really that families, parents, professionals have.

And this week we're gonna talk about school anxiety 'cause that's, feels like it's a big thing sometimes for quite a few children. It feels like for me that there is more school anxiety than when I, a very long time ago was at school. I dunno if it is or if. We are just more able to verbalize it, to understand it.

What, would your thoughts be? Yeah. [00:01:00] It's, 

Claire: it is a difficult one. If since last time my role slightly changed, so while I'm now focusing more of in terms of the early intervention. So it's thinking about young people who are in school and experiencing those early kind of elements that are impacting upon them within the environment.

And I would say eight, if not nine out of 10 referrals all identify anxiety and anxieties within the school environment. Now, whether that's because we've got better at naming it and articulating it in the world of wellbeing or whether the pressures have increased, I can't quite say, but I would say.

Without there being any kind of hard evidence. It's both. And I think it's, really difficult to sometimes [00:02:00] pinpoint what this is because all of it's anxiety, but actually anxiety. There are different levels of anxiety and it presents in different ways for our young people for a multitude of reasons.

But it is very prevalent. 

Philippa: Yeah. And I suppose school pressures have changed, haven't they? From, certainly from when I was at school. There, there is a lot more requirement for our children in the mainstream to attain. And it feels like that the, band that they go down is narrower than what.

A long time ago when I was at school 30 years, 40 years ago. Which, gosh, I don't like saying that when I was there, there was a, I felt there was a lot more sports, there was a lot more, range of what you could do, although you still needed to, pass your [00:03:00] exams. There was still precious to do GCSEs and a levels and things like that.

But I, I wonder if the, expectations and the tests for, children can be more, more challenging. Some kids are gonna thrive, aren't they? Because that's where they learn really well. I was at a quiz night last night and I, of the whole, of the quizzes, I answered one question and that was, who is this bear?

And it was blue and that was the only question that I could get. 'cause I, my brain doesn't hold facts and information. So doing exams. Is really hard. So if you are a kid who has got that going on, that must, and it would create anxiety for me. But if you are a little person, you must struggle with that.

Claire: Absolutely. And it's changed [00:04:00] and it's evolved, hasn't it? That the pressures that we see in schools now and, the relevance with exams and we see it as early as when they're starting the SATs and that pressure instantly how that is communicated within school. We've got some tests coming up and they're really important and this is paving the way for your future.

So we, see. That kind of exam stress and the pressure around education happening very early on. And then obviously a next big point is coming up to GCSEs and you're thinking about your year elevens and your year tens leading up to it. But again, it's that, language and the ethos within the school where you know, this is a really big deal, that this is the be all and the end all, this is the amount of revision you should be doing.

So a lot [00:05:00] of expectations are set out, a lot of information is shared. And what do you do with that? Because everybody is aware, to some degree, GCSEs are important or it's an important milestone within education. Even if we think about the context of exams, the transition for young people from primary schools or from middle schools to high school, instantly we go into that discussion of and I, remember it quite clearly myself, so on your introduction evening, we are promoting independence.

You are now going into those more young adult years. You have to be responsible for this, so your child must be doing this. And as a parent to hear that's quite daunting. But also for young people sat there, actually, yes. We want that independence and autonomy to be [00:06:00] grown and, all the other skills that come with that.

But there still needs to be that nurture there. This is a huge transition, very different environment, very different expectations where it is all about succeeding. It's the educational arena. And schools do this very differently. But equally there is that same pressure that's always there with your exams.

As a wellbeing and mental health service, we're always gearing ourselves up for this year and thinking about the stages of what we will see with the young people. So it might be that we see the anxieties coming out quite earlier, that fear of failure, what's the future going to look like? And then coming up to the crucial parts to close to the exams where we see young people that from one end of the scale they've totally shut down.

Lots of [00:07:00] procrastination because it just feels so overwhelming for them to the other end of the scale where we have those perfectionistic tendencies and they are putting a hundred percent into it, but actually increasing their work and their productivity. Is having the opposite effect because the BA brain can't retain the information.

The rate at which they are revising and doing their work is having such an impact upon them that it doesn't end up being productive, and then they start to fail, and then it's a downward spiral with that. 

Philippa: I wonder, I guess I wonder, when you were talking now, I was thinking about that fight, flight, freeze response that actually, rather than being regulated and in our whole brain, which is where we learn, isn't it, when we are accessing all our brain, we're feeling safe, we're feeling regulated, therefore we can [00:08:00] learn, we can we can adapt, we can do all those sorts of things.

If actually at either end that's what made me think about is we are actually in survival mode, which is, I've just gotta get through this, which actually shuts down that learning part of our brain. So we're not gonna learn because actually we're just surviving each day, surviving those feelings.

Yeah, we just, yeah, we just, it's a threat response that's been triggered rather than that connected, supported part that we want. Would that be right? 

Claire: Absolutely. When we are in that kind of calm, more relaxed state, majority of things feel much easier to do. But when we have 1,000,001 things on our minds, because it's not just exam stresses.

We are navigating friendships, we're navigating the school environment. We're navigating [00:09:00] what's happening at home in terms of what's happening with your parents. And in the wider family network, life happens and then we're suddenly thrust within the environment of. We've got GCSEs coming up and we have so much information given to us, which is great, this fantastic resources, but what do we do with it?

And the anxiety builds and that sense, and the key word is, and overwhelmed with it. I just feel overwhelmed and I don't know what to do with this. So when you are heightened with all of that, worry about it. And then the thoughts are, what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen if I fail?

What's gonna happen if I don't do well? What's my future going to look like? And parents, of course want the children to do well and they'll be doing that encouragement from the [00:10:00] home side of things. And equally at school, there's a, an assembly about it. There's a session on it. There's extra lessons that are happening.

So when do you ever get a break away from this, apart from when you're in bed at night and you're trying to rest? And of course, as we know, that's a, key time when thoughts run away with themselves. So we then have impact upon the sleep, then we're waking up, then we're tired, and it's a constant hamster wheel of running this.

For us, six months might not seem a very long time, but in the world of a young person, it feels like forever. Where do you get reprieve from it? Where do you get a break from it? And equally. We then get to the point where we're doing work with young people to say, it's okay to have a break. It's okay [00:11:00] not to think about it on a Saturday, or it's okay to have half term away from this.

But then when you're doing other activities, you're not engaged in it, you are not enjoying it, you are not enjoying being with your family because we end up with those thoughts of, I should be revising, or I'm feeling guilt for this. And there's no enjoyment in the activities that you would normally do.

So again, even when we try and implement positive strategies to help it, you can't engage in it because that anxiety, that underlying tone is still there, or it becomes so much for people that they shut down. And then worst case scenario, disengage from the whole education process. 

Philippa: Okay, so that's exams, but I'm thinking that there are other kinds of stresses that also go on in school.

So you, you've got exams and I guess [00:12:00] also the pressure of coursework, all those sorts of things. The attainment really boards. But there's also, I think just moving into a bigger school with all those other pupils. If you go to a small school, a middle school or a primary school, depending on the system where you are, and then all of a sudden you go into a high school, there is much.

Much more change goes on in the day, isn't it? That you're moving from one class to another, you're moving upstairs, you're moving downstairs, you are moving with a range of pupils. Some of them are all, are like adults, aren't they really? If you are, yeah, if you are little in, if you are a little year seven, which would, be for people who, aren't in the UK kind of age 11.

You, you can be in with six formers who are 18, can't you sometimes moving around. Yeah. And that just in itself, just [00:13:00] being in a space where there's all these bodies of people that you've got to navigate where you've go, you've got to get to the right classroom, you've got to find the right teacher.

You've got to remember to collect your cooking stuff from your locker or not leave your coat there before you get the boss. Or all the millions of things that are just, your school day. I imagine for some people that is just really overwhelming and, anxiety provoking 

Claire: of course. It's, a world away.

It's a world away. And I think sometimes the numbers, the environment, and again, it's that expectation. It's. The learning, it's getting used to a new system. And I think I'd alluded to it before as well, that transition from lower schools to high schools are absolutely a, key time for young people. [00:14:00] Because for all the reasons you've said it, it's really anxiety provoking.

And I think in some ways there's excitement in there for young people as well because you've got that I'm going up to big school. So I think there's an element of excitement as well as the apprehension. And I think schools do their very best to try and ease that. But I think for some of our young people.

Where that becomes particularly tricky is when we're thinking about young people who are neurodivergent. So if we're thinking about young people who have autism, young people who have a DHD and again, some of our young people who have a lot of predisposing factors, which means they are very anxious by the very nature, need a lot of routine and a lot of consistency.

Philippa: And I guess at, sorry. I was gonna say, I guess those attachment figures as [00:15:00] well. If you've had disruptive attachments in your early life and you are now having to change teachers all the time, that a again can be quite difficult, can't it? That's part of that that diverse neurodiversity, that neuro that diverse need, that actually to feel safe.

You need a consistent figure, don't you? 

Claire: Yeah. And I think that's what. It. This is an area that does bring about huge change because you will find that within the primary schools or within middle schools. And I know from my experience of why we picked the middle school for our daughter, it's thinking about they have really good nurture program there.

They have wellbeing ambassadors there and they really think about a holistic approach to young people's wellbeing and recognize that even in the education environment, yes, expectations are [00:16:00] there, but they're still children that require that nurture. So absolutely key relationships are built up within pastoral departments with teachers that they have with their form tutor.

And those are really, key relationships for young people because a lot of what we hear is. It's not necessarily that we are wanting schools to, to fix the mental health problem or to necessarily address directly the wellbeing issues, but it's creating that ethos that nurtures the growth and development of the child, their confidence, their self-esteem.

And the biggest thing for young people is just knowing that at home I may get heard there and actually it feels safe, but when I go to school, [00:17:00] I want to know that there's somebody there that I can go to that can hear me, not necessarily fix it, but they take the time to hear me and validate how I feel.

And then it helps to forge those connections. 

That it is a safe environment to go to. And equally for some young people, sc the school environment is perhaps the most consistent and safe environment for them. So again, having those connections to know that I could go to somebody if I wasn't feeling okay, I will be heard.

And whether it's sitting down with a cup of hot chocolate and having a bit of a chitchat, it makes the world of difference and it encourages young people to keep engaging with that system. You go to high school, that's gone. But and that's not to say that everything's [00:18:00] gone because equally.

Some really good relationships are built with form tutors, et cetera, but it's on a very different platform than what you'd see previously. So when you say about those relationships and attachments, it's very different. And some high schools are absolutely fantastic and still ensuring that connection is there and they do the transition work again really, important so that young person has that almost a care passport that goes with them, that actually, here were some of my difficulties, this is what helped, these are gonna be some of the challenges for my future.

And how does that information go from one school to another school? And those connections are made again. 

Philippa: And I guess from one teacher to another when you're in high school, because you might have a couple of teachers who, have the time and the space and that are able to read it and think, [00:19:00] okay, yeah, I've got this.

They need to sit at the front, I need to check in with them twice in a lesson. They need this, and this. Others may be who have multiple roles within the school that just don't have the time to do that. So that, so I guess the experience of the child, the young person is gonna be different with different teachers in different lessons just 'cause humans are different anyway.

But then if that if that kind of understanding of, their needs or what's gonna support them to be in the lesson isn't known. For whatever reason, then that again, I guess has an impact. That inconsistency can feel really scary if you have, got kind of neuro neurodiversity. But even just being a typically developing child, it's scary.

You might have more resources to, to pull upon. Might you, that I guess that's [00:20:00] what we are thinking. There might be just a few more resources if you haven't got other challenges for yourself as well within that day-to-day environment. 

Claire: Absolutely. And I think that's where it's really hard on one res, in one respect, four schools, because there are a large number of children and there are a large number of children.

No one child is ever gonna be the same. But it's almost like we, we have this box where we've got the average child that fits in there, then we extend the box where there might be some children who are struggling with emotional wellbeing. And we extend the box a bit further because actually there are children who are neurodiverse and their needs are different.

So how wide do we keep going with that box and how much can we expect from schools to be able to [00:21:00] support and address the difficulties as well as meet the needs? So I can see that it can be tricky navigating that just in a general sense. But then we have teachers who can adapt and work with the needs really well.

And for other teachers, their approach is completely different. And their understanding might be different. And I guess that's where our services come in to help develop knowledge within schools to understand that. But how we, just can't fit everybody into that same box. And I think that's where some of the anxieties also present for young people because we all have to get on, we all have to be friends.

We all have to respect one another. And that's great. This is, we're trying to teach our children how to have a positive approach to [00:22:00] people and friendships, but that does not work in reality. You are with people that you don't like. You are grouped with people who you find are mean. You are with people that you don't have or share the same interests, but you all have to get on whilst just as the average person.

And we think about development. You've gotta fathom your way through friendships. Where do I fit in this chain? Am I with the populace? Am I with the IT lots? Am I with this? And there's still that language now of whether it's the it's the swats, it's the really nerdy people, or it's the really smart people, or it's the really popular group.

There's this whole boxing of where you fit within your friends as well as all of us having to respect one another in an environment and it doesn't fit. And again, a lot of [00:23:00] anxieties we see. Just about navigating friendships. How do I navigate this when the people that I'm actually spending my lunchtime with, my break times with, I'm sat next to them in lessons and I don't like them and they're not nice to me.

What do you do with that? 

Philippa: Absolutely. And, so all that kind of, you can see how then children, young people begin to think, I just can't do this. 'cause as an adult we wouldn't, we changed jobs, wouldn't 

we? 

And that's what I was feeling in my, job. I'd be like I'm done is me. Me three months notice I'm off you.

You would just change. You're go and do something else, wouldn't you? Yeah. But as a child, you don't have that choice. You've got to. You're supposed to turn up every day and go into mass, going into science, going to cooking, going to some others maybe didn't [00:24:00] turn up every day and some others chose to do different things and yeah.

And the truant officer had come around and see your mother and I don't know even know if you have true and anymore. I'm sure they do in a different form, but Yeah. But again, you can see how it starts to become overwhelming. And, I'm joking about, but you would change your job if that, was your life, you definitely wouldn't keep going, would you?

But we have to make, or we should be making our children go into that environment where they're being bullied, where they're feeling unheard, where they're feeling overwhelmed, where the system's not fitting for them, where they are where it's eroding their self-esteem day after day.

And their needs aren't being met for whatever reason. This isn't a judgment about schools. It is probably a judgment about a system that we've got. It's not about the individual teachers. 'cause there's [00:25:00] some great ones out there. They're trying to work in a system themselves. So what do you start to see?

So if, you were a parent. Or somebody supporting a young person. What, when it starts to to get a little bit more, a little bit tricky, what are you, what are they going to start to see in their child that is gonna start to be concerning, do you think? 

Claire: Unfortunately, the one thing that you would hope is that they would come and talk to you.

Doesn't happen. But we start to see changes in mood. And again, it's really difficult because there is mood disturbance, shall we say. As a teenager, you are up, you are down. And, I guess it's just tracking your child's behavior. And moods in the sense of, we know we've got more slam doors, we know we've got [00:26:00] more talking back.

But actually in between that we've still got those glimmers where. They're okay. And that's where you think, oh, I've got my child back just for that moment. And you've had a hug and you've just connected, and then all of a sudden one of the friends calls, they're off. They're gone. You've lost 'em again.

So it's just finding what's that, norm at that moment in time. And it's thinking about, is something slightly changing? Are we now getting into more of an isolative behavior? Is that conversation or those little moments of where we're engaging, disappearing? Needless to say, we've not mentioned social media and all of that yet.

And it's keeping those conversations open. But again, not prying too much because the chances are we get very [00:27:00] little information, but. We sometimes get information at about nine o'clock at night or 10 o'clock when we should be going to bed. And then there's a case of, oh, this happened today. So it's spying those moments to have those conversations.

And I think it's really, hard as a parent because then you want to fix, but actually it's just hearing, it's just keeping a track of what's happening or just those gentle, inquisitive questions where we've picked up a friend's name. Oh, so how is Sarah today? What's going on there? I think. 

Philippa: If you don't sticking with it.

Claire: Yeah. 

Philippa: Sorry. If you don't have a child who does share, 'cause some, children don't. Do they, they keep it all inside. Is it noticing that they are a little less connected? 'cause even if they don't talk about their day, they'll be moments where they'll come down and [00:28:00] want food off you.

So you'll feed them or they'll come and ask you to fix something or just come and just hang around. Even if then there might only be some more moments. Yeah. So you've got those moments of, connection. So when you are saying. More isolated behavior. It's that those, even if they're not chatty, what you are seeing is, that there's more and more withdrawal from Yeah, from the family environment.

Would that also be from their social environment as well? If they've got that they want to go out less or they want to engage less, maybe you know, go, that's 

Claire: a bit of a tricky one because, and the reason I say that is the world has changed. So whereas before we'd see people going out, oh, can I go out with so and can we nip to town? Can we go to the park? Can we do this? That social element has shifted over the years, so [00:29:00] actual social elements now are, I'm FaceTiming so and and actually there's more time being spent in their room chitchatting. Whereas before, we might be able to monitor where they're going and what they're doing.

There sometimes is more of a preference that actually I'm not gonna meet up with my friends, but I am gonna FaceTime. I'm gonna talk. And again, that's why I would say that it's that encouragement and like you say, the need to come down for food. So actually, if we're gonna eat, are we going to eat together or are we gonna have a snack together?

That encouragement of, oh are we gonna watch a film together? Or something like that. So there are those fleeting moments, but like I say, having those discussions, oh, who have you been chatting to today? And if it's a familiar friend or a same friend that they've been linking in with. Usually you might get a bit of feedback around it or you might get the sense [00:30:00] you can hear it upstairs, for example if there's lots of laughter going on with the chit chat and the discussions that they're having.

So again, it's just keeping those, that ear out to think about what's happening or actually has everything gone very quiet. So what are they doing when they're upstairs and they're in the room? And that encouragement to bring them out and thinking about just the basic activities that you might have.

So obviously thinking about we are coming up to half term, so what might we do? We might still go and pick pumpkin or whatever and do those little activities. And even if they are older, it's. Just reverting 'em back to that kind of childhood place again. Or even just the elements of nurture as well. Let's just have a hot chocolate, coax 'em down and engage with them that way and see how they are responding in those moments.

But I know [00:31:00] personally, and also for parents, the social climate of what we used to measure them by is very different to what we measure them by now. 

Philippa: So, we notice, so I'm just thinking about the anxiety. So we're just noticing that it's a little bit more tough, a little bit harder, and I guess that's at one, one end of the scale.

And you can support by doing these trying to help them connect. I guess also checking in with school, I'm guessing is you could do that. Just check in with school and wonder. Is there a, teacher there, a senco special educational needs coordinator or something like that is just around, that can just notice, I guess that's at one end.

And then the complete other end of that is where we get to the point where we've got kids who are saying I just, can't go in. I just can't, I can't do this. [00:32:00] What, what is going on for them, do you think? And. 

Claire: Okay. If I think maybe to the young people that, that I work with again, it usually follows on from the transition period.

So like we've said before, going into high school it's, a new kind of environment. Lots of new things happening. And there seems to be this tolerance that, or the honeymoon period to start off with. So we're trying to adapt, we're trying to fit in, but I think it's crucial to consider that developmental stage as well.

That actually, and like I said before, where do we fit in terms of our friendships socially within society, our sexual orientation, our personal preferences. So it's a really, key stage that 13 and 14 from when this is starting [00:33:00] to get established. But if we think about, for example, young people who are neurodiverse

after that honeymoon period, there's a sudden reality that things are not feeling okay, but we can't necessarily put it into words. There's a very un big uncertainty around this environment. It's very big, it's very loud, and it starts to feel overwhelming. So those anxieties which may have been contained and managed a bit more easier at primary school, now we're getting into that big world where we've got the adults and everything.

And that anxiety bucket keeps filling up because these are things that are press present on a day-to-day basis. Their noise, the amount of people, the understanding friendships, or any issues that are going on, as well as the learning environment itself. That bucket never [00:34:00] empties. It remains if it's left unchecked and not having the strategist to empty some of these stressors out of the bucket as well.

Now we know that, for example, with autism, it, nobody comes with a banner that says, I am autistic. And it's very unique and it's very different for every person, and it can get missed, and we don't understand the context of what's happening for young people, and they don't get it. They just know something's different.

But because you can't put this into words and you can't necessarily talk about it, and that stress is always there, so the only thing you can do is go to your bedroom, get under the duvet and just let that day go. You are not talking to anybody. Parents don't know how to assist. And absolutely what do you do?

But it ends up coming to a crisis point. So we're not in a [00:35:00] position where we can say, look I've had enough. And sometimes I get feelings that I don't wanna be here, or school is too overwhelming for me. So for one of my young people, it was how they described it, an absolute meltdown, getting ready for school.

Their friend had come down and they just had enough panic, anxiety response at its highest, and they never went back. And again, if I think about another one of my young people it resulted in that term ending just before summer, and that was it. They couldn't take anymore. And they would not leave the house.

That was it. Everything just suddenly became too much and they shut down. 

Philippa: So [00:36:00] how do you support young people with, those kind of feelings? Because I'm guessing the truant officer coming around and saying, you've got to send your kid to school, isn't gonna be that helpful. Although I know that those letters still go out and we get fined and all those sorts of things.

So get your kid in school, do it. And parents are like do you think if I could get my kid into school, I wouldn't? Do you know what I mean? This is just something I need help with. Do something. I'm telling you it's been difficult. 'cause often these conversations have been going on for a while, haven't they?

It doesn't just happen. I know that it can all of a sudden just happen, but often there has been little notices before and parents have been maybe saying we need some help. Yeah, and that hasn't. For, again, for whatever reason. This isn't about judging, but it just hasn't been going in.

And that it's got to this crisis point of the young [00:37:00] person just saying it's just too much. Which is again, what you'd do if it was a job, you just go off sick, wouldn't you? You, that's literally what you do. You would go off sick. Yeah. And not go into work. And that's all they're doing really.

That's what I think. They're letting us know that this is, and having somebody say, you've got to go, isn't gonna change it, I'm guessing. 

Claire: And that's it. Day in, day out, every day is an absolute battle for one reason or another, the dread of going to school. So again, not uncommon. Monday to Friday are horrific.

Saturday it's great. Saturday night is great. Sunday daytime, is great. Sunday nighttime, can't sleep. And again, when we see young people on the younger end of the scale where you will get parents saying, just dunno what to do it it's, so hard because they're bringing [00:38:00] their child in who's desperately clinging onto them, doesn't want to go to school.

Absolutely. In tears. Teachers there trying to peel them off and bring them into school and they eventually settle. But it's such a, for want of better word, it's that trauma in the morning. Absolutely. For the parent, for the young person. And again, teachers thinking, how can we coax them in? How can we adapt and make it feel better?

So you've got the younger ones and again, that can go on and morph into something else later down the line. 

I guess if we think about intervention, earlier intervention, and for me. It's thinking about how do we work with the parent and the school to think about it's really tough if you are having to do that every morning as a parent it's, got [00:39:00] to weigh you down.

And it weighs heavy on your heart. Because it's feeling of the feelings of just, what do I do? I don't know what to do. I've tried everything I possibly can to prevent. They're just gonna stay at home now. And sometimes people will take their children outta school. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Claire: So it's working with the parents.

To think about potentially some of the strategies there, but also to hear their experience as well because it generates a level of anxiety in yourself. So how you know what's going on, what's the buildup in the morning? And really unpicking some of those maybe underlying niggles that are there as well, what's going on?

And sometimes when we open up that arena, we might find, we've got a parent who's really ill and actually the child doesn't [00:40:00] want to go to school 'cause they're really worried about that parent, but they're too young to put that into words. And equally it's working with the school to think about how do they help that transition.

In the morning into that school environment, do we have the kind of familiar teacher who they get on really well with? Is there time just to sit down in a quiet, safe space just to bring it all down and maybe think about what the day's going to look like together? So that's maybe the approach that we think about for the younger ones, but for the older ones where there is that sudden disengagement and I think about my young people, but actually because they won't come out the house now.

We go into the home and it's unpicking what's happened, but equally where there are, where they are right now. Because the fear that's then [00:41:00] generated about. Can't even think about accessing education. They know that GCSEs are coming up. They can't even think about that. So actually, whilst other people's goal might be to get them back into school from a mental health perspective and wellbeing perspective, it's about what's going on for them right now.

And their goal might be, let's just pop down to the local shop, buy some sweets and come back. And that would be a huge milestone for them because whatever's going on, their bucket is too full. They, can't even think about that engagement within the community 

Philippa: again. So would if you've got a kid who's refusing to go into to school, then you would k working with the school to think about, okay, how do we help the young person maybe access some education [00:42:00] whilst we work on their mental health and wellbeing?

Or would you be saying, actually no, just leave education over there. Let's not go anywhere near it and just do this. I suppose I'm saying that and, but I'm thinking in my head I wonder if it's a bit of and in both. That's not what I'm thinking about. But yeah, a bit of both depending on the child and young person.

Because I guess some people might be able to access some learning at home and then do a part-time timetable or go into a lesson that. They they've got that connection with the teacher or go into the nurture hub or something like that. Yeah. Whereas others maybe can't do any of that. 

Claire: I think it's difficult when people don't have an answer for what they're seeing.

We can see the behavior, the refusal, the upset of coming into school or a very poor [00:43:00] attendance. We see the behavior, but we don't have a reason for it. Therefore, the expectation is you come and you attend school. Okay. Okay. I'm just 

Philippa: gonna, can I just stop you there? I suppose I'm just thinking you've just told me all the reasons for it.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. That's what I would like. We do have a reason for it, don't we? We might not be able to do, but we do have a reason for it. We, know that. 

Claire: But we don't know that from an education perspective. Perhaps we can assu, I know it. Parents may know it because they've they hear, they see their child.

But what I'm saying is what is the reason for not coming in? The reason is you're finding friendships difficult. That's not a reason not to be coming in school. 

Philippa: Okay. Who? So what, that's what the school would be saying. This is not, it's not okay. 'cause you're [00:44:00] being bullied. 

Yeah. 

Okay. Okay. So that is a parent.

It's really hard to hear, I would imagine. 

Claire: Absolutely. Because you see the emotion of your child. Yeah. And again, this is not. Put in schools in a negative light? 

Philippa: No, 

Claire: There is a practicality that's there. You do not on, you do not as a education provider, know all the ins and outs of young people and their lives and their circumstances.

And equally going to school as a young person, you know that you've got to behave. So you do your very, best and then when you get home, it all just shoots out. So my point, this is whatever's being seen in terms of the young person's behavior, there is a reason for it, and we know that.

There's always a reason for a behavior, [00:45:00] and part of our role is to help others. Understand that. Sometimes as parents we can't make sense of it, but equally for schools, because they don't know every circumstance of every child. But actually if we can help to say, for example, this family, dad's really unwell.

Mom has some mental health difficulties and is gaining support herself right now, and the young person is, really worried because when so and so was upset before they left the home for a period of time, for example, to going support. So there's an uncertainty there, but actually how could we help school with the consent of the parents to understand the context a bit more?

That there is a genuine fear that this young person has, that the parent may not be there when they go back home. [00:46:00] That. Even though they're only tiny or young we're thinking six or seven. They're aware that the parent is not, wow. Home is not being consistent and that's nobody's fault.

But why would they want to come to school? 'cause they want to be with their key caregivers. So it's helping schools to sometimes understand the context of what's happening, but equally, the behavior that you are seeing is perfectly, for want of a better word, normal. It is to be expected under the circumstances.

So we are going to have to give the child a little bit of space, recognize that some days they're not gonna be coming in. Recognize that actually when they do come in is going to feel really difficult. Like you said. Do we have a reduced timetable? Do we keep those connections there? Because the connections with school and with friendships are really, important.

Even though we've said [00:47:00] sometimes they can be really difficult, but that social environment can also be really positive to socialize, to learn, to have that sense of achievement and mastery, which is vital. But if we can have that joint understanding about the difficulties that are presenting in that young person's world, we as the grownups, the professionals around them can adapt to that and add flexibility to allow time.

Because it isn't just a case of let's send them to therapy and we can fix that. No, this is gonna remain for quite a while. And it's, the behavior will shift. Sometimes it'll, prove to be really, tricky. And some days there'll be good days. 

But we need to adapt with the child over the coming months, year, et cetera, because sometimes we can't [00:48:00] change the situation for that child, but we can work around.

And wrap around the child. 

Philippa: Yeah. And I'm guessing we are gonna be running outta time and I think we probably need to do another episode. So I guess there's those children that can't return back into school and need alternative provisions. Let's just park that because I think that's a massive topic on itself.

Yeah. 

I suppose what I'm, thinking about is, for children who do have anxieties who, are really struggling to go into school, but the school can adapt. There are things can't that schools can do by providing quiet spaces for them to go, by allowing them to listen to, music or things like that by helping them when they've got exams or tests to do it in a separate room or in a small group or having music or having prompts or for kids who like daydream, having somebody just go and touch their shoulder and [00:49:00] help them to remember to, focus back on their, about having a.

Like you say, that connection, that key worker or one or two or being able to leave a classroom if they are getting a little bit an anxious without having to explain that Miss kind. Yeah. 'cause lots of schools will say, yeah, but they can either just have to work. And it's the asking is the, anxiety stuff isn't it is about, they just need to be able to go.

And then if they are in the corridor that somebody's not gonna say to them, why are you outta class? And then they've got to try and explain. And so there are things that can happen, can't they? That can help to reduce the an, the anxiety somewhat. But I suppose it's giving a young. Person strategies and resources to manage, because sometimes that's what isn't.

There is our own internal resources to be able to manage this feeling and it's how do we as the adults, [00:50:00] give these children, scaffold them really their emotional experience by providing resources that they can pull on that slowly over time. Hopefully they'll build their own, but just for period, we just need to give that to them externally.

Would that be right? Yeah. 

Claire: And some of the schools do a fantastic job and they also. If we think about their mental health leads as well they have a really good handle on emotional wellbeing of our young people. And they have programs and groups within schools and again for schools and, it is accessible in majority of schools now, and it will be even wider.

So if we think about the mental health teams that we have in schools working alongside mental health leads in schools as well it's thinking about they [00:51:00] have certain provisions and it's called different things in different areas. But think about how's your mood today? How do we name it?

How can we feel it in the body? How do we make sense of it? And for the older. Slightly older age group as well. It's thinking about those friendships, how do we integrate, how do we deal with those kind of tricky feelings that we have right now? But there are a lot of practical things that they put in place.

Like you've said, quiet rooms, quiet space, someone that they can link in with. And yes, sometimes it's hard to do that. So it might be that we have some set times when we could meet that are scheduled just for you so you don't feel like one of the comments, oh, they're really busy. I didn't want to disturb them.

So we could have those set times there. But I would say for any parent linking in with the mental health lead. [00:52:00] Within that school, have those discussions. And it might be that accessing some lower level support, just thinking about what do we do with the big emotions? How could we develop our toolbox of actually when this is happening, what do I need right now?

And thinking through that. And it might be a timeout card where you just put it on your desk and you walk out and you don't need to say anything. So there are mult, I think over the years. This has really developed which is fantastic and schools put a heck of a lot of time into this as well.

But the anxieties and the pressures, whether that's exams, whether it's transitioning, whether it's because you have additional needs and there's a uniqueness to you. So we're thinking about [00:53:00] neurodivergence that has increased and it's not gonna go away. 

And we've got to adapt with that.

Philippa: And I think as parents it can be difficult calling it especially like you email a school and then you don't get a response. Or the response is in two days time and you phone somebody I would say this is just from my personal point of view, it's just email everybody, but when my kid was in year nine and 10, I was on first name terms with quite a few of the teachers because I just made myself a nuisance and I didn't care really because if that they listened to me then because if you don't posh, and that's not that the teachers were, they were fantastic, but they had so many other things that, that, that were precious, that they see the email come in and they think I'll get back to it and.

They really meant to [00:54:00] get back to it, but then it dress for a couple of days. But for your kids, those couple of days are, really tricky. That needs managing Absolutely. At that moment. So as a parent, just as a parent, I just used to email everybody. I would go and sit in reception and say, I'll just wait.

I'll just wait till they're free. It's fine. And they would be come free and they would see me and and I am sing. I know that I've got a bit more confidence. But I suppose sometimes as parents, we have to do that work, don't we? To get schools to really get what's going on for our kid. And it's not that they don't want to, it's just that they've got so many other things that we almost have to push our kid to the top of their priority list.

That's what I think. And yeah, we can do that by just being very present within the school. And yeah, I'm 

Claire: not advocating, boycotting all the receptions of schools across the land but [00:55:00] what I would say is, I think sometimes parents hold back, and when I speak with parents, they'll say, we thought there was something I'd done an assessment not long ago, and actually it was just like, yeah, we've, we thought this we, thought there was something different about our child, but we didn't quite know how to raise it because we couldn't necessarily say it's this, and this.

Because equally when my child goes to school. They're the perfect model child, but when they come home, all hell breaks looses because they've had to hold everything in from that day. So my advice is link in with your mental health lead, your wellbeing lead. Absolutely. Have those discussions. And just because you only see it at home, you need school to be aware so they can lock out and observe those nuances.

Because if we are going to get specialist [00:56:00] support moving forward, school are a part of that. 

Parents are a part of that. Our kids are at school for the big portion, of time. And just to know that you've got somebody at school who is keeping those observations can really help to ease those worries of parents as well.

And have a think about what the services are available. Around in that area, but majority of schools will have some wellbeing support in there as well. So explore what that might look like, 

Philippa: because parents really are the expert in their kids. You can access all these other things. You know what, I could 

Claire: argue to death with that pk, because I know people say that, but as a parent, I do not feel, even as a therapist, I still do not feel like I am the expert sometimes.

My child. Yeah. Post change, 

Philippa: yeah. You might not be the expert in on picking the tiny bits, but you are the [00:57:00] expert when, you know there's something different with your child. You can feel, even if they're saying everything's okay, you can feel that. And I'm not sure that there is, you might not know what that is.

You might need support, extra support for it. You might need somebody to come along and unpick it. It might, you might need your best friend to come along and have a really nice chat or all those sorts of things. But you, have to trust, I think, as a parent, your own instinct. 'cause that is where you are the expert.

Nobody else get has that, that that thing that, that you do, even if you don't know what that thing is, you, you know it. And going and saying, go on. 

Claire: Yeah. And, that's why I think, like when I was previously in cams, it's thinking about parents come to you at the absolute end of their tether where they will say, we have been pushed [00:58:00] from pillar to post, from service to here and now we're here.

And that's pressure then sits with you that they are looking for an answer. And it is outta sheer desperation of over year and years saying something doesn't quite fit. For my child, something slightly different. I don't know what it is. And then parents go and it's just the right to choose or, all sorts of different avenues to think do we need that assessment, don't we?

But the frustration that parents then hold and they're so tired and they just want. Their child to be happy and okay. 

Philippa: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I guess what we are saying, we just need to come to an end. What, I guess what we are saying is that school anxiety. [00:59:00] Is pretty normal, typical at one end that, that most children at some point are gonna have some level of school anxiety.

Whether that's over exams, whether it's over friendship, whether it's over things that are going on at home and they, don't want to le leave home or and it can be as simple as that. You've got a new baby sister or brother, isn't it? And you don't wanna leave them at home with your mom and do you know what I mean?

Or it can be simple things, but that can create big feelings. And those big feelings are just as valid as anything else. And it's about recognizing, holding and working through with the young person and the school that actually this is going on. And, that dialogue is important even when people think, oh, it's just nothing.

Actually. It's something for your child. Let's let the school know, or the school let's let the parent know that there's actually had this little [01:00:00] rupture with a, friendship in the canteen. And we just need you to know about that so that those con conversations can go on. But that would be typical for many children, right through to actually, I'm really overwhelmed and I can't do this.

And at this point there's probably lots of things going on. It may be just about school, it's often a bit more complex and needs a little bit of unpicking, and maybe that's where you need that more expert supporting. But if you can start to have those conversations in the middle of that thing, and in the middle of that spectrum and start to say, actually I'm noticing.

What are we gonna do? How are we gonna support? And just really, I suppose for me it's about letting our kids know that actually it's okay. It's okay to have these big feelings. We [01:01:00] might not always have the answers and sometimes we don't know what to do even as adults. But it's almost being honest about that, isn't it?

'cause that can validate a young person's feeling of actually it's really hard to get up to date and I don't want to go in. There is, that's 

Claire: one of the important bits as well, the validation of that feeling and not being dismissed with it as well. And I think my advice to any parent would be it's not about the parent needing to fix it.

Sometimes it's just hearing that it's really tricky. They just want to tell you they just want that hug. And that is more powerful than any kind of therapy really, that you can have. But even if you are detecting those little. Odd bits very early on and you can feel that there's a bit of anxiety there, or a little bit of snappiness or anger coming out in your child.

[01:02:00] Link in with school. Link in with our wellbeing department and do not be afraid to access the support that you know, any of those mental health teams that are in school for that early intervention. It's a gentle introduction to helping them access some of the tips and the tricks that could help, that might be all that they ever need, just to tip that course back on the right track.

And absolutely. So don't be afraid to use it. It's fair. School is rife with lots of triggers, lots of anxiety, bits in there. And then if further support is required, again it's a good introduction. To gaining support for your wellbeing. And if something else is needed, obviously there are other services available, but don't be afraid to access it.

Philippa: Oh, that's a great place to end there, Claire. So [01:03:00] thank you so much for your time and we'll definitely have you back on to talk about social media, I think, 'cause that was the one thing that we didn't touch on here and maybe when we need to, move outta mainstream. But thank you for your time and thank you.

Yeah.