EP32 Play and Neurodiversity

Join Julie as she interviews Simon Airey and they delve into the intersection of neurodiversity and play. In this episode, Simon shares his personal experiences as an autistic adult, discussing how everyday activities like sorting and organising can be forms of play. They also explore the concept of play in early childhood education, emphasising the importance of child-led and neuro-affirming practices. The conversation underscores the importance of educators recognising and supporting diverse play behaviours to create more effective learning environments.

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Transcript

Julie: 0:00

Welcome to Simon Airy for this episode of pondering Play and Therapy and very unusually, Simon and I are actually in the same room together. We discovered in our first conversation that we live in the same corner of South London. So welcome Simon.

Simon: 0:18

Thanks for having me.

Julie: 0:20

And Simon, we are here today to talk about neurodiversity and play. And could you start off for us, just tell us about play in your life now as an adult?

Simon: 0:34

It's a tricky one to try and quantify because we probably do a lot of stuff. As adults that we don't realize that we could classify as play. I think that we look at what we do in our daily lives and it's very busy what we do, but there's probably little bits where we, in the part of our daily routine that you could probably classify as play or. I think particularly if we're coming in from it, from my point, which, so I, I'm diagnosed autistic. I am may possibly have a DH adhd As well. So I find that there's things that I do within my daily life now, which are stuff, or things that I just get on with in my own time. So things like, I will watch, particular YouTube clips. Which will lead to special interests. So I also will do things like yesterday I cleared stuff. I was doing stuff in the flat yesterday, which is involve also moving stuff around, sorting things out. Now, I dunno if you classify that as just household stuff or whether there's an element of play to that. I find that an interesting thing to probably explore a bit further, whether. There is stuff that you do every day and it's stuff that you just get on with. It's just things.

Julie: 1:51

But when we were thinking about this a little while ago, you talked about tinkering, cleaning not so much cleaning, but the sorting and how pleasurable that is for you if you've got time to really sort stuff.

Simon: 2:06

Yeah. I find that. When I moved into this particular flat, I moved there 2023. 23. I moved there. The, when I moved in, I had everything packed in boxes and all boxes. Had a label on to say where it had to go, and everything was unpacked within the day. I moved in because it's all, it was all there. But now I find myself going back to some of those things and having to go through it all because it just interests me. So things like. I went through a phase of collecting postcards, birthday cards because it linked to a memory of that particular place I went to. So things like I frequently go down to Brighton. I love Brighton. I love going down to the beach. I love sitting by the sea, but when I go there, I'll always go to the lanes where it's got lots of different types of shops down there. And I'll always try and buy like a card that just, it just links to that particular experience I've had on that day. So whether it's been, I know last time I went down there it was overcast, it was gloomy, and so the card that I bought was an overcast, gloomy type of card. And I think there's probably something to be said about. The play linking to memories. I think that's,

Julie: 3:28

oh, okay. Maybe

Simon: 3:29

a thing to think about. So maybe that's, it activates something within you to say that the sort of play or things that we do as adults, which could be interpreted as play. It's almost having that signpost to what it is that's happened.

Julie: 3:49

And even if that's so not necessarily things from childhood or linking memories back to many years ago, but even just linking back to a day at Brighton that just happened a few days ago to be able to hold onto some sort of tangible memory of that. Yeah. Or a card. Or a picture.

Simon: 4:09

I think it's, for me, one of my difficulties is recognizing emotions and recognizing. How I'm feeling, and I think having that visual image of it. And then I then look at it, think, yeah, that, that time I went to Brighton, it was either, it might been raining, it might have been cloudy, it might have been overcast. I know one time I went down there, there was this beautiful sunset on the beach. And that time I didn't buy anything. I just took a photo of it because that was the. The lasting image I wanted to have of Brighton. And I think when you talk about the link to childhood, I'm just thinking there are, I do have things that probably link to childhood. So I do find things that, especially when I was talking to my clinician about my when I had my appointment for my autism diagnosis, we went right back to childhood. And, I was able to recall things, recall times at nursery. I was able to recall times primary school, middle. We had primary, middle and upper school rather than primary, secondary. And there was things that I could talk about, quite specific things. For example, I talked about in my early years at school, I talked about salmon and water, the sensory aspects being very significant and very. Important. And I still like that sort of stuff now. So like when it's raining? Yeah. Like particularly yesterday, it was chucking it down with rain. Oh, it was awful yesterday, but I was out in it yesterday. I went out in it, I had my wet weather clothes on and they, I can't explain whether it's like the it's like a century feast for me. So you get the rain against you. You have the. Sound of it, the smell of it. It just makes me feel quite grounded in a way, but I appreciate also that's some people who can understand the rain at all and they get, they avoid it. So it's more I was seeking the sensory experience from the rain.

Julie: 6:13

Yeah. But

Simon: 6:14

there's people who avoid it. They're avoiding the sensory experience from it. But that's the way we are, I think, isn't it? It's the way we're made. Made up and it probably explains who we are.

Julie: 6:26

So yeah, that sense of being outside, having that huge sensory of experiences, you said with the wet the rain, the feel of that and you are noticing that's different to somebody else who may absolutely avoid that. So what's play for you is not play for somebody else or play's got an element of the sensory and pleasure for

Simon: 6:48

you? Yeah, I think so. It is almost comparing what we see as cha children's play. To what we do as adults. And I think of, children's play. Like we're sitting in this room at the moment. I can see lots of things in this room that'd probably associate more with children's play rather than adult.

Julie: 7:10

Adult play. This is a play therapy room that we are sitting in. In my home. There's a play therapy room. So yeah. Associated with children,

Simon: 7:18

but then there'll be stuff in here that I think, I'm looking at, you've got like a box of pen box of pens over here. Sometimes during a meeting I may doodle

Julie: 7:27

During

Simon: 7:27

a meeting. And that doesn't mean I'm not listening. I'm listening to what the person's saying. It's just I need to do, be doing something. As I'm listening, because I think. With things like doodling, it's a way to help you almost a way to help you regulate because if you didn't have that sort of option, I think for me the danger is you're not gonna take in what the person's saying.

Julie: 7:55

Yeah. For you. And do you know, Simon? This is a conversation Philippa and I had just last week. I noticed that as she and I were having a conversation for about 45, 50 minutes. I had covered a whole page with pastels and patterns, and in order to help me release something to be able to really listen and engage in the conversation, I needed something in my hands. Yeah, I needed to create something and then I throw it away afterwards. It's not an important piece of paper,

Simon: 8:28

but it meets a need in the moment it meets a there's something that you needed in that moment, whether it's to keep your hands busy or whether doing the pattern or the artwork helps you in that moment. And I think there's a direct link there between what we probably do for children. It for those of us that work in education, that there's that shift. Now I think between, we used to think of it as behavior, as managing children's behavior. Actually. It's more about supporting children with their behavior because recognizing the behavior as a form of communication so the children communicate their needs and feelings through the behavior. Maybe we do that as well, and actually probably we don't realize it sometimes. So when

Julie: 9:18

I

Simon: 9:18

was out in the rain yesterday, I was very happy to be out in the rain yesterday and I was on my own as well. I do, I find. I find myself happier in my own company.

Julie: 9:29

So yeah. Say could you say a bit more about play for you as an adult or, even thinking about you as a child together with somebody else or on your own where do you sit?

Simon: 9:44

More on my own, definitely. Yeah. I find, because I first, I live on my own Uhhuh and I feel that I've always lived on my own and I feel that. Being on my own, plus my plus the fact I'm autistic. I can just do stuff without someone else seeing it.

Julie: 10:03

Not that I'm

Simon: 10:03

embarrassed about it, but it's things like, I could be sitting there with, my books for example. I think there's something going on with my books there. I don't like the way they're sorted out, so I'm gonna take all the books off the shelf. I'm gonna put'em all on the floor. I'm gonna sort them out in, might do my color, I might put the red ones here. The green ones here. Or I might sort'em by their size. Or the fact that there's too many on one shelf, or there's some that are a bit crooked and they don't look quite right. I think there's something to be said about if, at the very first sentence you probably said about tinkering and sorting stuff out, some people that would be boring. But for me. When I'm focused on that, I have to be in the right frame of mind for it. I can be sitting there for quite a while doing that sort of stuff, and it won't be right the first time. I'll do something and then sort it. Yeah, we're gonna put it back. We're gonna put the books back on the shelf now. No, it's not right. Take it off, sort it out again. Then I think there's books I don't no longer read or I don't need them anymore. They can go there. So then what am I gonna do with those books? I gonna put, sell them. Am I gonna take'em down to the charity shop? I'll take'em down the charity shop. So I put'em on the bag, take'em down to the shop. Those things I do find might pleasurable, but then some people just think that's just normal everyday stuff. So what's the difference then between. I see it as a type of play almost.

Julie: 11:32

Yeah.

Simon: 11:34

What's the difference between that and then seeing it as something you are just getting on with in everyday life? Is there a distinct,

Julie: 11:41

I suppose I could ask it the other way around then. Are there chores and household tasks that you need to do in your flat that don't bring you pleasure?

Simon: 11:51

Oh, there's several. There's several things.

Julie: 11:53

Okay. So that,

Simon: 11:54

yeah, so things like with, washing my clothes, I put all the clothes that need washing always go in the laundry bin and every, I'll wash them. There's a lot of effort in taking them out the washing machine,'cause I usually forget. I've usually done it. Then got on with something else. Then probably a day later I've realized that there's still clothes in the washing machine that I'll wet. So then I think I've got to put it on wash again. And then sometimes I have to set a timer or I have to set something on my phone. To remind me to take it out the washing machine, and then if they're dry, even putting them away in the cupboard, that feels like a chore

Julie: 12:36

for me.

Simon: 12:36

So at the moment, in my flat, there's actually a lot of clothes on the floor, but there's, all the trousers are here, all the jumpers are here, and then so on. Then part of me just thinks, I just want to get some colored boxes and just throw'em in so it avoids having to put them in the wardrobe. I just I just don't, I almost wanna say, if I'm gonna say I just can't authored, yeah. I just cannot be bothered. It just, it feels hard even saying it because I'm asking someone. It's still thinking like what's someone thinking? That maybe listens to this thinking can't even put his own clothes away. It's not that I can't put them away, I just don't feel like it.

Julie: 13:18

Yeah. And so there's something about play and pleasure within some household chores. Sorting out your books. Yeah. Sorting out your kitchen cupboards. Taking things out, ordering them that brings you some joy and some pleasure. And there are other tasks that leave. Leave you flat.

Simon: 13:37

Yeah.

Julie: 13:37

Really there's no energy in it. There's no life in it.

Simon: 13:40

Yeah. And when I've done it, yeah. I'm exhausted after doing it. Okay.

Julie: 13:44

So is there something about play that brings us energy? So when you say, when you finish sorting out the book Cupboard

Simon: 13:54

Yeah.

Julie: 13:56

Where's your energy level at the end of that?

Simon: 13:59

I usually feel, with things like that, I'm satisfied. I look at it thing, yeah, okay. I've sorted my books. Then when I need to do stuff with my books, I know where everything is. So that I thought, okay, and it looks ordered. It looks ordered for me, and. When I'm doing the sort of the ordering stuff with neuro neurodivergent individuals have this thing called hyperfocus. So the hyperfocus is you are getting really into something and there's times when I get really into something and you lose sight of you've gotta drink water, you've got to eat, you've got to get up and move around a bit, or whatever. So sometimes you lose sight of those basic. Needs because you're so interested in something. So again, sometimes I have to set an alarm or something to say to me, but remember to drink your water. Remember to go and put the dinner on. Remember to go and do this because if you are so into something, there's that danger where you are neglecting your basic sort of needs.

Julie: 15:03

Yeah. Yeah.

Simon: 15:04

So I almost have to. Be very mindful of the fact that I'm choosing to do the things that I love the most. It's things like, I can have one of those water bottles with the measurements

Julie: 15:16

Yeah. Yeah. On

Simon: 15:17

it. And it's very vividly colored, so you can't miss miss the bottle. So that usually sits on my desk if I'm working in my desk, if I'm working on the laptop, sitting on the sofa, working on the laptop, I have it on a little stool next to me. And because it's within eye line, it means I, yeah. Drink. Drink your water. And because it says on there, once you've drunk one lot of it, then you've gotta fill it up and do it. Do it again. So there is stuff that brings me a lot of happiness when I'm doing that stuff. But I've realized now I've realized quite quickly, when you are interested in those things, you've got to. Take care of yourself. While you're doing, yeah.

Julie: 15:55

Yeah, lots to think about play as an adult, things that bring you pleasure, things that give you energy, but also can potentially sap your. Your sort of physiological needs because you might not notice them because you're so hyperfocused on something. That's right. And then the other side of that is the sort of daily activities, household chores that leave you flat and sap your energy. Not that you don't do them, they're a grind. Yeah. And so play for another adult. If I was to interview somebody else, and I'm think I'm sitting here thinking I love a bit of laundry, I love counting. I love putting things in piles. That's like your book thing. But I have it with laundry. What's pleasure and play for one person is drudgery and boredom for somebody else and vice versa.

Simon: 16:45

Yeah. I agree with that. I think you could almost, when we think about play, play with children, we always think, sort of solitary play. Then we think parallel play, we think cooperative play. And then the fact that the play, and we call it play scale, would say that the ultimate goal, we want Jordan to interact with other children. Naturally, for myself and actually probably a lot of neurodivergent children, that's not the case. We don't wanna be pushed into Always thinking like the goal is to play with another child. Actually, I'm quite happy sitting over here. Engaged in whatever it is, I'm engaged. I don't want anyone else coming over here. So maybe, I think there's a, as a, it is almost an attitudinal attitude thing that, some people need to appreciate that if you are neurodivergent, your brain is wide differently, works differently. And the fact is we shouldn't be pushing those people into. What we consider, I'm gonna use this inverted look. Normal. Yeah. Or neurotypical.

Julie: 17:51

Yeah.

Simon: 17:51

Ways. And actually that's not what we want. I'm looking in here, for example, and I'm looking at that basket in the corner with it's food, isn't it? It's food in that basket. Yeah. It's a little

Julie: 18:01

shopping trolley with fake food and stuff in it. Yeah.

Simon: 18:04

You could have all manner of play. Yeah. With that, you may have some children who will sort them, line them up.

Julie: 18:10

Absolutely.

Simon: 18:11

But you'll have some children who will be acting out. Their experiences of going to the supermarket with it and all those forms of play, whether it's, repetitive play, whether it's ordering or whatever it is, they all need to be appreciated. They all need to be valued by, if there's, by the adult. I'm talking primarily by the adult and even as another adult sometimes, are things. Sometimes the things I've described to you already, I'm already thinking some people might think is a bit weird. Actually it's not weird.

Julie: 18:46

No, it's at all. It's it's just the way I'm it's neurotypical for you. Yeah. But what makes something you a divergent? It's only that it's divergent from the other person who's in the ring with you. But this is typical for you. And exactly. I'm looking at that basket of food. It's like a, it is like a wheel long shopping trolley. And exactly. I can imagine, I can remember many children who have indeed tipped it all out and sorted it into fruit, vegetables, boxes, sweets. That is their play. And they want me as the therapist, I happen to be a therapist working with children here. You could also be a teacher, whatever your role is with children, parent, just to sit with them and witness what they want to do with it. And then immediately there are other children who give me the trolley and want me to come shopping. Or they lay out a little shop and it becomes role play. But as you said, there is that, that there are those scales, there are many stages of play that, that we are taught as teachers as therapists, with that sense of a child ought to move from solitary to parallel playing next to, to cooperative along that scale. So Simon, tell us a bit about the work that you are doing currently and,'cause you are an early years teacher.

Simon: 20:12

Yeah. Or early

Julie: 20:13

years educator.

Simon: 20:13

Yeah, so primarily I'm an early years teacher. I came in to teaching in two th in the year 2000. I started off by being key stage one teacher, and so

Julie: 20:26

that's 4, 5, 6 year olds. Key stage one is five.

Simon: 20:30

To seven.

Julie: 20:31

Five to seven. Yeah. So this is in the UK of Key Stage one is the, yeah. Five to

Simon: 20:35

seven. Yeah. And then I moved to early years. I wasn't sure about it, but I loved it. I ended up really enjoying my time in reception nursery, and then I became an early years lead. It was during COVID. The back end of COVID that I started re reassess my priorities and where I wanted to be. And I decided to go on to supply teaching in 20, in 2021, which I've been doing since then. And that role has been either covering, absent teachers. My most recent role is as. It's as an early years intervention teacher, so I've been working with children that have speech and language need, or they have need support with their behavior. They have emerging neurodivergency, not just autism or A DHD, but other forms of Neurodivergency as well. And that has been really good because the setting that I work with. Has allowed me to take all the need and do it in the way where, whichever way I wanted

Julie: 21:53

to. So

Simon: 21:53

they gave me what the targets were, the suggested intervention programs. But they said, do what you need to do with it to ensure that these children have the experience that they richly need. So it is all done through play. The space that I was given. Again, the school said, do whatever you want with it in terms of how you want it to look. And I found quite quickly that because there was no expectation to sit at a table

Julie: 22:24

They

Simon: 22:24

could move around freely within the environment as you would in an early years classroom. But because it was low arousal, it was low there wasn't sensory overload in that room, so there wasn't, there wasn't things hanging everywhere. There weren't cluttered walls, there weren't 50 million different colors on the display paper. Yeah. I found quite quickly the children who came to visit did really well because of that particular philosophy. The fact that it was movement based, it was open-ended, so there wasn't a set activity. It was. I'm gonna call it stuff. There's stuff there. And more, for me it was more weaving the need within the play. So if it's speech and language, it would be Right. I'm looking to what the child's going to, so the child could have. Gone to loose parts and just got lots of stuff out. And she said, I've had kids just come and tip on the floor. Yeah. And part of me thinks, oh my goodness, they've everything on the floor. That looks a mess. But it's not a mess for them at all. It's allowing them to make sense of what's there. So some of'em might leave it there. I've had my. That's my need. Now I'm gonna move on to something. Something else. But we found that these children responded extremely well to that approach. And we fed in particularly need to needs, particularly related to communication and behavior. We found that almost, I wanna say sneaking in, so sneaking in. Behavior strategies through the play worked really well. So I know a lot of schools, for example, they use zones of regulation, which is great. There's bits of it that I really love. There's bits of it that I think need tweaking. But things like if there were playing with dolls, for example, we able to say things like okay, so this doll's feeling sad. What would you do to help the doll if they're sad? And it really introduced all those. Strategies to help the children in their own daily life. So it became quite a powerful tool, which I suppose links to your area.

Julie: 24:44

I'm, we are sitting here in my play therapy room and I think, the way you are seeing the little ones who come to you, I'm guessing they're four, five year olds maybe. Yeah, they're really little ones. Where you've been tasked with helping them with a certain thing. So another grown up in the school has said to you, this child needs help with these things. So you've got the strap. You've got the targets, but the way of getting to those, you are really giving that child that one for me, wonderful space of saying. Let's see what happens. You are absolutely at the beginning following their lead, seeing where their interests are, where their needs are.

Simon: 25:31

It's quite brave that because it is

Julie: 25:33

brave within an educational

Simon: 25:35

yeah setting, because sometimes even with the younger kids, we are pushed, they've got to get to this level, they've got to get to these targets or whatever, but actually just to let them then go on with it in their own way is the way to go. You see what they do and. The more they're motivated and engaged by what they're doing, the better it's gonna be for them. And I think we also said earlier on about valuing what the child does. The child does tip things on the floor. It's very easy for us. We could go straight in there and say, oh my goodness, what are you, yeah. When actually, when you go beneath the iceberg, you know the bit of the iceberg where you can't see. You could say, you could always say it's a schematic behavior, a scattering schematic behavior. You could say it was just to see what happens causing effect causing effects. And, there's lots that child's demonstrating to us in that moment. It's just having the, it shifting that attitude to the child hasn't just done it to be difficult. They haven't done it to, in a bad way, they've done it because that's what they need to do. That's what they wanted to do

Julie: 26:48

at the

Simon: 26:48

time, which is all linked to, I think, child development and particularly if we're talking about neurodivergent practice and neuro, sorry, neuro affirming practice. It's an interest. So you'll get children doing the same thing over and over again, and that's really important if a child's doing something over and over again. Rather than breaking it outta that.

Julie: 27:10

Because

Simon: 27:11

we're gonna get re I think we're gonna get resistance from so the colored boxes are not gonna be out today, for example. Child's gonna get distressed because that's their security blanket. That's their, that's what they need during the day to help'em feel safe to help'em feel safe. We then think, yes, we're gonna have color boxes. We're gonna put something with it. See if the child goes for it. So we could have, for example, as well as colored boxes, colored lollipop sticks, colored cars, colored toys, whatever it is. Which then leads into sorting mathematics. There'll be communication there as well. So there's that shift from, rather than doing it for the child is actually for letting the child lead as I think as you said earlier.

Julie: 27:55

So rather than you having the goals in mind that have been set for you and that are goals that may well help that child to communicate, to be social within their class, or other things that might be needed later on in school, rather than you setting up something in this room that you have, you are, there are lots of things available to the child, but not overstimulating. And you wait and see where the child goes.

Simon: 28:27

Absolutely. Yeah. I think that, and then take

Julie: 28:29

it from there.

Simon: 28:30

Yeah. And that's, as we said, it's a high level of skill to have because you've gotta be very, it's almost, it's fear of the unknown.'cause you don't know what they're gonna do

Julie: 28:41

No

Simon: 28:41

with it. Which actually ironically goes against my need for safety, routine structure. Yes. All of that stuff. So letting the kids loose on the environment or the provision, it's, yeah, I'd never thought, I actually didn't think of it like that.

Julie: 28:58

So if you weren't neuro divergent and you were working with this cohort of youngsters who won, you were a divergent, do you think the work would be easier or harder?

Simon: 29:12

I think being neurodivergent. Is an advantage because you have the lived experience. Yes. If I wasn't neurodivergent, it's a hard one because when I had my diagnosis it clicked everything together for me. But I suppose in the past where I didn't, wouldn't have considered that I was neurodivergent. So I think when I first started teaching, I wouldn't have never thought I was neurodivergent. I just thought I was, I just thought I had anxiety or I thought I had. Just a bit different. When actually I just thought I'll just do things that I would do them. I suppose now the lift experience just brings an extra dimension to it. So I can see now in my own, when I was younger, I can see that, when I played with transformer, transformer toys Yeah. I remember that. I'd always play with the same ones. I'd line them up, I'd have'em in a particular way and I'd have a photo at home somewhere. Of me on holiday with my parents, and I had all the transformers lined up on the sofa in our holiday caravan, and it would never occurred to me then that was potentially a signal of neurodivergent. Neuro being neurodivergent. So it's almost, now I can see now it's almost like. If children, for example, line things up.'cause that's probably the play we normally associate with neurodivergent. Yeah. That's the kind of, but there's actually neurotypical children who would line things. Things up, it doesn't mean something of a child puts things in a line. It doesn't automatically mean they're neurodivergent at all. It is just a need at that particular

Julie: 30:48

Yeah.

Simon: 30:48

Particular time. So I think, yeah, it's being careful of. Making assumptions probably

Julie: 30:55

so are is, are there times when you have this free expressive time with children or certainly the beginnings of those sessions where you are dysregulated, you get activated by what a child has chosen to do. That, that feels disturbing to you or feels, ah, I really wish they would sort that out, or, I really wish they would do something else with it.

Simon: 31:25

I used to be like that, okay. I used to be like that. I used to have, when I first went into early years, and I'd set everything up. I'd they're not going for it, or they've trashed it or they've changed it or they've done something to it. I'd be like, I don't, I just don't get it. I've spent all this time. Setting this beautiful environment up for them and they're not going with it. Where now I realize actually we shouldn't be doing all of that because it's not going to. The children have that. They know what they're gonna do. With it. So now I do think that, when the children come into the space. I'm not as shocked or not as taken aback as I once was. When this approach started, when I started with this particular group, it was sort a bit of the unknown because there was the freedom to do whatever I wanted with it, but the demand was this is the need this, these are the reports we've had from say, speech and language therapist. These are things we need to implement. That bit. I quite enjoy. So you've got the professional advice. This is the target. They always give like recommendations and I look through it like, yeah, that all looks good. How are we gonna do it? Then I think play works. Play the approach. They have to be moving. They can't sit I'm not gonna tell'em to sit still.'cause children, particularly young children, they're not built to sit still for long periods of time. They've gotta be up and moving around. And I'd probably say the most important is they've gotta be able to connect with you. They've gotta be able to, they've got to be able to, it's trust, safety, knowing that you are with them, not just physically, but with them in terms of what they're doing. What they're doing. So if they, as you said earlier, if they come to you with the trolley The basket, that's powerful.'cause they're inviting you into their play and. Again, there's some adults maybe think children plan, I gotta be straight in now I've gotta be straight in and getting on with it with the kids. But actually the child might think, what you doing here? I don't want you here. Just go away and leave me. Leave me alone. So it's almost as adults as practitioners adjusting ourselves according to what we're seeing and what the children are communicating.'cause it's not always verbal what they'll communicate.

Julie: 33:43

No.

Simon: 33:44

Sometimes it'll be. You might get a push, you might get a, a tap on the arm or you might get a point or whatever. So it's opening ourselves up to the different forms of communication and what the children choose to tell us.

Julie: 34:00

Through their bodies, through their eyes, through the little nod of the head. But really important that you are in the room with them. It would make a difference to that child if you left the room, even if they're playing on their own.

Simon: 34:13

Yeah, I think so. I think we underestimate sometimes the impact the adult has. And I think children know children are not daft. Children know the they, they know the adults that they feel safe. Safe. They're the, they know the adults that will, be neuro affirming in their approach rather than saying no know things look at me. Use your words, and all that sort of stuff. And actually you'll get some neuro neurodivergent. Children won't use words, they'll use other forms of communication. Or you get children, neurotypical children who are in that state of distress. And they can't because they're so distressed about something, they can't verbally communicate, so they need something else to help them. So it's just that, that simple thing of I'm here saying they're here, you are here for them. You you are gonna respect their space. You're gonna sit over here, for example. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not just going in there and bombarding them with, oh, what's happened? Are you okay? And which disregulates them even more because you are. Adding to them, you are adding that sensory. You are adding another sensory layer to their distress

Julie: 35:26

when

Simon: 35:26

actually we need to match it with being calm, which I know is difficult, but we have to be, we have to be like that.

Julie: 35:33

Yeah. Being calm and sometimes, as you said, having a distance stepping away but still being in there.

Simon: 35:40

Yeah.

Julie: 35:41

The. Their zone. But not so close in, as you said that's causing even more distress.

Simon: 35:47

Yeah. So I'm just looking in here now, looking at this lovely road roadmap on the floor, quite easily you'd have to, two children could be in here With with toys and there could quite easily be an issue of sharing or turn taking or someone wants something which could lead to dysregulation. As people that work with children, we've got the amount of stuff we have to do, the amount of choices or decisions we make during the day. It's, I know someone's probably come up with a number.

Julie: 36:17

Yes. But I know

Simon: 36:19

It's, there's a lot, it's a lot, the amount of decisions or interactions or bits of support you are having to give to, up to, up to 30 children in a class, in a day. It's quite, I just think it's gonna be hundreds hundred of times it's complex.

Julie: 36:34

Yeah. And knowing when to move in and when to move out. Yeah. It is. I'm just working with one child at a time here, like you, I was a primary school teacher with 30 children in the room at once, and it is so hard knowing how to provide an environment. That most of the time suits most of the children's needs. I, I think that's really, complex and hard, and we get it wrong a lot. But that concept of every child, what does it, what does a child, what does this child need when they're dysregulated? And some children will need us to come in, be very close, talk soothingly with them. Give them a hug, help them with a drink. Be really close other children that is gonna really escalate things that make things far worse. It's for us as the grownups in a school or in a therapy setting, or parents to know what does this child need and what does this child need from me right now? And sometimes that means go away. Yeah. But don't go so far. Exactly. Go away. I have to, I'm sitting in a old fashioned armchair I suppose. I'm sitting and quite often I get told by the children. Go to the big chair. Go and sit in your chair. They don't sit in this chair for some reason. They realize this is my space. But I can see everything that's happening. But they want the distance

Simon: 38:03

sometimes. Yeah.

Julie: 38:05

And I don't sit on the floor unless I feel that they have invited me to do that. It's gonna be rare. A child says, Julie, will you come and sit with me? They leave a bit space for you sometimes, don't they? And

Simon: 38:19

Yeah.

Julie: 38:20

They nod to you, or hand, as you said, hand you something

Simon: 38:23

Yeah. To be, yeah. If they hand you something from their play that's yeah, I want you

Julie: 38:28

Yeah. You are in,

Simon: 38:29

you are involved. Yeah. Whether you like it or not, you are involved.

Julie: 38:33

Yeah. And you check out what it is. This thing is, one of the things we, as part of our play therapy training is not to presume what an object is. So I might be thinking, oh, this is the plastic giraffe. I would call that giraffe. It's giraffe, but for the child that might be, the golden hawk. So I never named something until the child is named it.

Simon: 38:58

I think that's really important'cause a lot of neurodivergent children in particular will think outside the box. And actually they probably had, there's no box for them. There's no box for them in the first place in the. They'll think of things to do with things with objects that we would never have thought of. So that's why for me, like the loose parts play where you've got like lots of stuff, but it's like wooden circles or leaves or twigs or whatever, the stuff that they'll do with those would be amazing. And it's removing that, okay, we're gonna use the, we're gonna use these natural tools to make a face, for example. That's not gonna particularly interest all children at all. It's right. Oh, obviously, have you done with this? Can you tell me about what you've Yeah. What you've made, and they'll come up with some amazing things. And I think it's, yeah it's allowing ourselves to go with the child and what they come up with.'cause, looking in here now looking at these baskets over here, they've got endless possibilities with them. Or like the house, a do's house, for me, the amount of stuff that you get from a Doll's house is some, is quite something.

Julie: 40:08

And it's, do you know, it is interesting. I'm looking at that now. It's rarely a home that Doll's house. It's been a camping site. It's been a school, it's been completely cleared out and put upside down and become a car. But it's, it is rarely actually used as a house. Wow. But just in the last few minutes, Simon, thinking about, what you have in, in that that those groups that you are, you've been running at school, you've been tasked with those targets. You've chosen to put the strategies that have been recommended slightly to the side, and you've gone for this child-centered, child-led approach. Do you meet the targets?

Simon: 40:53

Yeah, every time we if the targets are communication based, some of the targets are numerically based. It'll say things like, 70% of the time child has to use whatever it is they've got to use. I'd say yeah, pretty much all the children that come, whether it's whether it is a maths focus, whether it's a writing focus, the writing is the hardest one. Because it's a physical thing, you've gotta be able to Do. But if it's geared and if it's brought in the right way, then it's had a lot of success. And I think it's, I think it's underpinned by connection. We spoke about connection earlier. Connection, environment, and just that. Let the children knowing that what they do is valued. So those three things probably make it work. I think, yeah, I think it's almost this sort of thing needs to go beyond early years now. So there are children, we've, women we've spoken about. Older children benefiting from these things because, so I do get older children Who maybe are dysregulated and they've taken themselves out for a walk and I have had year six children wander in. Because, and I don't know these children at all. I don't know the older children At all. But, I've always said, if a child wanders in, I don't send them away.'cause they've come there for. Either they're curious, they just wanna see what's going on. Older children love working with younger children. It is the same principles I think with older children. I've never directly worked with like year five or year six, so the older children I've worked with are. Year four, which is eight and nine. Year olds. The older children. I've tried working with older college. I just don't, I don't get the same feeling from it. But yeah, coming back to your original question, I think it, it works. It works. I can see that it works. The school know, it knows it works as well. And it's all about. There is that element having to prove what you've done. Because if you are investing money into, a qualified teacher doing this Doing this particular these interventions, it wasn't five days a week. cause that would've been too much. There, there was the evidence there to say, yep, here we go. It works.'cause the money to fund this comes from a certain pulse of. Money and, as we don't think we have to prove impact Of which we were able to do. It's tricky because how do you measure play? How do you, you saw it, you, I always say it's to come and see it in action. And I did, record keep, I did produce each child. I did a very simple. Date overview of what the child did and the next steps. That's all I had on a Little grid. And interestingly, at the start, I always did I call it a play map. So I had a map of the classroom on a piece of paper, and for some kids, I used to track where the child went. So I used to draw a line of where the child went in that route. Some of the younger children, the line would be like everywhere. Everywhere. Because we hear that and everywhere. But interestingly for neuro diversion children, you would see them in one spot and they wouldn't move.

Julie: 44:19

So

Simon: 44:19

what, so if they knew that the water area was always on this area, it's there. That's it. That's all they would go,

Julie: 44:27

yeah.

Simon: 44:27

Go for. That would

Julie: 44:28

be their focus.

Simon: 44:29

Yeah. So there would be no, no play mapping for that child. They would be right there. And yeah. Some children, because they were over almost overstimulated by how much there was.

Julie: 44:37

Yeah.

Simon: 44:37

They'd be all over the place.

Julie: 44:39

Yeah.

Simon: 44:40

But the challenge was actually, it's recognizing that and then adapting it accordingly. And that environment and the job that I was asked to do, you had time to think about these things. So within a class of 30, you haven't really got

Julie: 44:57

no. And

Simon: 44:58

having the time to think about these things.

Julie: 45:00

No, and I think you know this as we are drawing to a close, this is what's happening with many of these conversations that Philippa and I are having and thank you so much for your words as well is the what next? The we are seeing and understanding so much about what's happening, especially when you were divergent children in mainstream schools and in regular schools, and. The sense of teaching staff other educators, the teaching assistants, we know a lot more now compared to 10 years ago about what these children may need and what will be meeting their needs, but the system isn't yet set up to allow staff to provide that for children. And this is a big crossroads for us as educators, I think, not just only in the uk, everywhere is the system that was, has been set up many years ago, decades ago, centuries ago. It is no longer it never met the needs of neuro diverted children. It's just we didn't have those names for it. We'd have delinquent written in school records and we've had school refusal. We'd have all sorts of derogatory names. And one of the things I know you are beginning to think about is how do you help other schools, help other educators to understand what you are discovering in your work? We wish you well with that, and maybe in a year's time, Simon, would you come back? Yeah,

Simon: 46:35

I'd be happy to do a revisit. Tell us where you're up to. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Julie: 46:40

But for today, Simon, thank you so much for being with us on pondering play and therapy.

Simon: 46:46

Thank you.