EP22 Play and Poverty

In this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy, hosts Julie and Philippa explore how poverty affects children's ability to engage in play. They discuss the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, the definition of poverty, and the statistics concerning child poverty in the UK. They highlight the various barriers that impoverished families face, such as limited access to resources, social exclusion, and the inability to reciprocate playdates. They also share personal anecdotes that demonstrate how children and families still manage to find moments of playfulness amidst adversity. The episode ends on a hopeful note, emphasising the importance of connection and the resilience of the human spirit.

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Transcript

Julie: 0:00

Welcome to this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy. With me, Julie,

Philippa: 0:07

and me Philippa. And this week we're going to be talking about play and poverty poverty has a big impact on children's play and as we talked about in a previous episode, there are communities they live in, and we just wanted to start by thinking about the rights that children have. So I don't know if listeners will know, but there is something called the United Nations convention of the Rights of the Child, and that was in 1990 and part of that is in Article 31, which says the right of the child to rest and leisure and to engage in play and recreational activities appropriate to the age of the child and to participate fully in cultural life and arts. We've talked about play in many forms, but one of the things that we wanted to think about today was about how poverty can impact on that play and also. Then that impacts on children's physical, cognitive, social, and emotional skills and development. So yeah. That's what we're gonna think about today. Poverty and play.

Julie: 1:26

In preparing for today's episode, we've had lots of, as always, tussles disagreements, agreements and so on. One thing that we're both fairly sure on is a sort of definition of poverty, and of course we're we are speaking from the uk and poverty here would be relative to this country and the communities that we exist in. And poverty will have. Although it will have the same definition, it will be measured in different ways, in different parts of the world. So we recognize we live in a first world country, but the definition that we have, for instance, from the Child Poverty Action Group, that's a campaigning group and charity within the uk. They define poverty as when individuals, families. Lack the resources to obtain the diet, the food, participate in the activities and the living conditions that are customary in the society in which those families and individuals groups belong. So that your level of income, your housing situation, your the. The availability of food and other resources is lower than most other people in your locality. So in the UK the government measures poverty for a child. So a child is said to be living in poverty if they live in a household where the income is below 60% of the national income. And so that, that's something I've really come to understand a lot more in the last couple of years, partly through teaching about play and therapy, but partly just in my understanding of the world and meeting friends and families, is that poverty isn't necessarily related to lack of work. So a family or an individual or group could be working several jobs. But still be living in poverty so that connection between income or wage and availability of work and poverty, it is not as stark as it used to be. If you were out of work, you were in poverty. If you are in work, you are not in poverty. That's really gone and we know about that and in this country and other developed countries where. The availability of work doesn't reduce the amount of poverty in.

Philippa: 4:16

There is a statistic that says the government statistic that in April, 2024 4.5 million children, which is 31% of all children were in poverty. So that's one third, one third of children. Yes. In the uk I was just doing maths then. Maths isn't my strong point or in poverty. That's mind blowing, isn't it? Absolutely. Mind blowing. Yeah. So anything else that we're gonna talk about play, about the impact on play? The fact that 4.5 million just in the uk, which is a really wealthy country. Are living in poverty under the depo. The definite definition that you read out that don't have access to these very basic needs.

Julie: 5:11

Yeah. So in a class of 30 children, that would be about nine children.

Philippa: 5:17

That's a lot of people, isn't it? So

Julie: 5:20

teachers listening in. Support staff in school. As you look out over your class, the children that you are caring for, nine out of that class, standard class of 30 would be living in poverty, and that can be very hidden. You may not know that. Yeah, not every child, not every family will let others know that's the situation they're in. And so what we want to think about, particularly today, is for children who are living in families where they would meet the definition of poverty, what impact, if any, might that have on their capacity to play? And if it is having a detrimental impact on. Then that is also we know going to impact their capacity to learn their capacity, their language capacity, their social interaction capacity. So that's where we're going to be today. Actually, already I'm feeling, gosh, this is such a heavy subject and yet I know always there isn't. I suppose there's always hope, and I'm very aware. I'm thinking today of families where I know they are living in extreme poverty and deprivation of housing, and yet their capacity to play is still really buoyant. And I'm curious about why some children living in situations of poverty still access play and become very playful. And others, it really curtails the capacity for play. And I expect, I don't know the answers to that. And in years to come, when I'm well dead and gone, people will begin to understand why a situation such as poverty affects some people in one way and affects others in a different way. And I don't understand that just yet.

Philippa: 7:28

And I wonder if it's not just about. I think it's just such a wide topic, isn't it? So there's, there is the very basic stuff of can, can we play? Do we access play? Is it there? I would think about a kid who goes to school who hasn't had breakfast that morning because maybe there's no bread, there's no milk, there's no, there's no food for them to have breakfast. Their ability to access play on the playground is gonna be lessened because you are tireder, your ball is hungry. You are, you are in a very different place than a kid who's had a bowl of frosties and croissants and, all these sorts of things. So there's that. Kind of poverty. There's the poverty of the environment that they're living in, that maybe they're in, a rented accommodation or social housing where there's not very much space for them to play and so they would, they could play and they may have playful parents, they may have playful siblings, but they. The space to play is very limited. So what they can play may be on screens or, they may read a book which is playful, but they don't have the wide variety of play that maybe somebody in a different accommodation, different environment may have. There is play, where you. You might be able and have the skill. So you might be at play football, you might play football in the park with all your friends, and you might be very good at it, but then you don't have the financial ability to join the club. But the person down the road does, and their ability's the same, but they join the club and she then gets noticed by a talent scout and then gets to play in, in a football academy or something like that. But because you don't have the financial resources to do that, you might play football, you might do it all the time, but the poverty limits your accessibility, your. To, to wider resources from that. Does that make sense? So you're still playing, you're still having all that access, but you can't join the football club or the, whatever it is. Chess club, all those sorts of things. Chess club was a bit like, I'm like, who did I know that played chess as a kid? I'm sure people did, but I didn't know anyone. Yeah. I was just being quite stereotypical there. But, those, the rugby club or whatever.'cause you can't. And you might be able to afford it when you are young because you don't need a kit. But once you get to having to do a kit or take the rotation turns even, of washing the kit.'cause that sometimes happens, doesn't it? That each parent has to take a turn and washing everyone's kit, but maybe you don't have a washing machine or you just couldn't afford to, or you couldn't dry them because it's the middle of winter that limits the access. It's not that you aren't playing, you are playing, but. Poverty limits your access to things. Does that make sense?

Julie: 10:22

And of the access to be able to do that playfulness with other people, because as we know, a lot of play can happen on our own, and many children and adults enjoy finding playful things to do on our own. But I think that's really crucial to think about the social impact. Poverty on play interactions, so not having the financial resources to get to the place where some social play is going on. So not being able to get on the bus, not being able to have a car, put petrol in the car to get you to the place where other children and young people might be doing some play but is provided free. So there are, I know around where I live, there are some free activities that go on, but some families don't have the capacity to get their child there to do it. I happen to live in London and actually our children and young people have free bus travel, which is amazing. And I love the fact that up to the age of 11, they don't even need a card. They can just walk on the bus and sail on up the top, having to do.

Philippa: 11:37

Say, Julie, the fact that you've got a boss is Yes. For where I live I is very luxurious. I live in a place where there is a boss, but you cannot get anywhere on that boss unless you go in the middle of the day at very specific town. There's three, yeah, it comes through our village three times and I am not very remote. I am a little bit rural, but not that far. But you couldn't get anywhere on a bus for a certain time. Yeah, you have to be, so buses is very luxurious from my thing.

Julie: 12:09

Absolutely. And I appreciate that about living in London. I get really annoyed if the bus is, gonna be in seven minutes, I think. Oh my goodness. In London we have that huge advantage of being able to get places. But there are where you are. You would need a car. You would need somebody to come and pick you up, to take you to the place where the play thing might happen. And if your family is living in poverty, that might not be an option. So there are, there could be the fees for, the club or the membership of something. As you say the resources that you need, the uniform, the kit the art materials or whatever is needed for that club. And I know many, there are many clubs and places that are able to offer that for free or at reduced rates, but it puts that child and that family always in a situation of having to ask for, having to prove their poverty status by having to send in their bank account detail or their, not their, statement proving their universal credit status or whatever other benefits they're receiving. And I know of many families from when I was teaching in a school where they were eligible for many top-ups. They were eligible for free school meals, eligible for free places on a school trip, but didn't want the shame of having to provide all the paperwork that proves that, didn't want to declare that in the school, didn't want their child in any way to feel. The effects of poverty. Now, that was 10 years ago. I left that school and I'm wondering now if, because of the crisis that we are in now financially, is, I wonder if that attitude has had to change for many families where they have to let people know we do not have enough and we do need help. Often the child is with the parent when those conversations are happening at the school gate, or in going to the food bank or in going to the swimming pool to ask, have you got any subsidized places? And for the child to constantly be aware of that, where does that put that child's sense of self? Their parents noticing the vulnerability of their parents?

Philippa: 14:41

I think all, I think also on, on top of that, what we should say, I think you, you talked about it at the beginning, this is often not parents who are not willing to work. There, there will be some people who, you know. For very legitimate reasons need to be, an income benefits to support them. But there are also of this four and a half million people, children, families that are working and they're working two or three jobs to, to provide their rent and their food and things like that. And then at those times they can't afford childcare. So what happens to the children? O often or at times, older children will then be tasked of looking after young children, won't they? Because a parent legitimately has to go to work in order to work so that they can live and they can have food. But then if you are 13 and you are looking after your. Two younger siblings. Again, your play opportunities are significantly reduced, aren't they?'cause you can't go out with your mates because you now have to look after your siblings. And that interaction, whilst they may be very lovely 13 year olds, they're not parents, they're not adults. So those younger ones are also losing something. They may be gaining things as well, a close relationship but a 13-year-old. Yes, can babysit. Of course they can. And watch your kids while you go to the shop for a little bit of time. But I guess their role in our culture isn't about caring for younger children, their siblings. On a very regular basis for longer periods of time. But and I'm guessing for parents that's probably not what they want their children to be doing, but they often don't have that choice because it's a choice between, eating and you having to rely on children, to support. You in order to go to work or not. And those are really difficult choices, I think.

Julie: 16:51

But I think that Philippa, we've talked a lot in these episodes about do you need an adult? In order for a child to be able to play. And I think you and I would say, no, not always, and you and I growing up didn't have an adult who played with us. Might have played a board game every now in game and again with us, but primarily, if I think about my play experience as a child, it was with siblings or visiting another friend.

Philippa: 17:21

Yeah. But I suppose. Your siblings weren't then responsible for feeding you, for putting you to bed to do. You know what I mean? It changes that dynamic I think. It's not about that siblings aren't there to play. Yes, of course. But when you are 13 and responsible. For your brother, your sister, or your other siblings, there's a very different relationship then, and you're not there to just play with them and entertain them. Yeah. Okay. That's what I'm talking about, the, as an adult, we have the capacity. Hopefully to be able to cook dinner and watch our 4-year-old draw and make comments around. Yes. But when you are 13 you just physically and neurologically don't have that capacity because you aren't developed. So yeah, it's not about siblings playing. It's about. Being in that role of an adult really in, yes, I see that for prolonged periods of time. Again, yeah. This is not, for a Saturday afternoon or this is prolonged periods where your parent is out because they have to go out, they have to go to work. This is not about being I absolutely say that this is what families. It ha have to do that. There is no choice for them. In some circumstances.

Julie: 18:41

Yeah. And I'm thinking about a situation where a child, and so I'm thinking about my own experiences, but also I know a lot of experiences of other children who have this availability. To be able to visit a friend and have what is now called a play date. I don't think I ever called it that as a child, but I just went to Magda's house and we played and that was very reciprocal. I would visit one of my friends up the road for a few hours and another night in the week she come, might come down and visit me and we lived in identical houses. The, these houses there were sort of seven or eight in a row. They were all absolutely identical. On the outside, but of course inside very different. I played at hers, she played at mine, and that was a lot of my play development, I think up and down the street playing at other other friends' houses. But if you are living in a situation of poverty, sorry, I'm just, I'm I. You'll have to cut this out, but I'm just laughing. There's a little girl at my gate just playing with my gate and making it open and closing. She's just having a lovely time. But yeah, the capacity, when you are living in very small accommodation or accommodation, that's not stable accommodation. That's temporary accommodation that is moldy. That is badly ventilated, that is poorly decorated, that is damp. Your capacity to reciprocate with a play date is completely shut down. You are living in a hotel as your family. I'm connected with, have been doing for 10 weeks, three teenagers, mom and dad in a hotel room for 10 weeks. And so they cannot go and visit a friend in their house. They haven't wanted to. They've wanted to be able to get back to the hotel before dark, and they've never been able, they're not allowed to have other children come and visit and they can have adults come and visit. But in this hotel, you can't have children come and visit who are not living there, and yet corridor. It is full of children. Every door is open and there are children in every room in this hotel. And these this is not asylum seekers or refugees. This is British citizens living in the country who the council isn't able to find them accommodation at the moment. So that reciprocal peer relationship that can go on with developing play is really shut down for many, but not all many families that live in poverty because you can't reciprocate that visiting. And I think that applies to part, parties, a party might be in the house. I think more often now a child's birthday party is at a place, at an event, at a swimming pool, at a climbing wall, at a going out. And this is an expensive thing to do, but if you are living in poverty and your child is invited to that, do you say yes or no? One, you've got to get your child there. There might be an expectation of a present. There might be the expectation of a card. Do you, what do you do with your other children while you wait around for that child? You might need to contribute towards the cost of it, but then when it's your child's birthday. Have you got the two or 300 pound that it might be to have eight of your child's friends back? And so does your child politely say, no, thank you. We're already busy that weekend to every party. And over time, does that then shut down that child's, social interaction within the class or within the social group? Because they're not able to reciprocate. And I see that happening over and over again in school. And I know something that's happened in some schools is they've the school staff have made not a rule, but an expectation that every child is invited to every party. With the resources of many children, if we think nine out of 30 children are living in poverty, they can't invite 30 children to their birthday party. Absolutely. And I, yeah I do disagree with schools that make that expectation. I think it comes with, a lack of understanding of the situations. Many families are living in.

Philippa: 23:32

Absolutely. It reminds me, I was just thinking about choices and how we make choices. And it reminds me, I was in Manchester not long ago and I was Manchester got quite. Big homeless community. I think partly because Andy Burnham there has really been supportive of ho of the homeless community and trying to find at least sleeping accommodation and things like that. So it, I, this would be my uneducated view. But then that's encouraged people to go because actually there is more resources for homeless. People within there. Within there. So I was in Manchester and I was on my way back and I was just gonna get a drink out of Sainsbury's in Manchester, Piccadilly, which is the big railway station there. And there was a young lad, he was about 20, maybe I would say he was younger than my child. So 19, 20, I would've said. Loitering outside Sainsbury's and these two security guards were watching him and he just said to me, excuse me, could you buy me a pack of sweets? I was like a pack of sweets. What do you want me sweetss for? He said, oh, I just, I want some sweets. The sugar helps me. So I was like, come on let's go in and we'll get a meal deal. And some crisps. And some sweetss and whatever you need. And this, I could see this security guard, thankfully being kind, following us around as we. Find his meal deal and his chocolate and he is, and his sweets and what, whatever it is he is buying. But I am saying, I'm talking to him and he was saying, yeah. Kay. I was in foster care and in foster care all my life. It was from Scotland, he said, and I had a relationship with a girl and. W she was from here, so I moved down here and then that's ended and now I don't have anywhere to live. And he said, I've got 11 pound, 11 pound. And he showed me this 11 pound in his hand. He said I need 15 pound to be able to buy somewhere to sleep. He said, so I can't buy any food because I need 15 pound to sleep. And that was really his choice. And he'd been in. In the care of. The corporate parents for most of his life and his day, he was a young, he was a young man. I would say, like I say, 1920, who should be with his mates doing stuff, having a career, and he was having to choose. Between, did he eat that day or did he sleep somewhere safe at night And he still had four pound to get to be able to have somewhere to sleep. And this was kind of seven o'clock at night. I actually didn't have any cash otherwise I would've given him the four quid. But I did buy him his food so at least he could eat. But he still had to ask other strangers for four pound and his choice was, where do I sleep? Or can I eat? Where is play in that? Where do you find play within those? That, that, that choice that your whole life your whole day is about finding resources for those two very basic needs. One being safe. Yeah, eating and that was really what his choice was.

Julie: 26:53

And that's making me think of, Maslow's hierarchy of needs triangle, which, many listeners will know about. And at the very bottom of that triangle is the physical needs for food, water, shelter. The physical things that are going to keep us alive, the things that are gonna keep us safe. Alive and it's much higher up that triangle that the sort of psychological needs, the relational needs can be thought about. And so for many families and not all families, and of course this, there's a big spectrum of poverty, even within that 30% for a number of families living in poverty, their day is like that young man that you met. It's about has everyone got somewhere to sleep? And I don't mean a bed at this bottom of the hierarchy of needs. It's have we got a room? Have we got four walls to shelter? Is there food? Is there water? And then the next stage is thinking about is there a place for everybody, a bed or a mattress or a corner for everybody within this space? Have we got facilities to cook? Have we got facilities to wash and keep clean? They would be on the next rug. The energy and time that it takes to just manage all those physiological and safety needs means capacity or the availability of the parent and the capacity for the child to even think about play is really reduced. Although we all know and you will know of families and children who somehow, and I find this, hugely admirable and amazing and I don't understand how playfulness can still be built into that looking for the physiological needs. I'm thinking about a sort of, I suppose he was about eight or nine when I worked with this child in a school. He was a twin and can't remember his name, but I'll call him Maurice. I often use Maurice. I like that name. And Maurice was referred to me for play therapy not his twin brother, interestingly, and. I knew this family were living in poverty. I knew they were living in small, cramped accommodation, and I had a beautiful playroom, and I set out my playroom as I would for every child. With, resources, cars, art materials nurture area, a sand tray, a water tray. And I'd recently got a new dolls house. It was one of those dolls houses that folds up and has a handle and you clip it together. It's like a little suitcase. And I'd inherited it from a play therapist who had recently retired. She had given me some of her kit. And I was so delighted to have this little house, and Morris came in. I didn't know him, I hadn't met him before. He came with his ta, his teaching assistant who sat outside and Morris came in and he was fuming. He was so angry with me. That I had provided what I thought of as a beautiful room with all these wonderful resources, and here I was as the play therapists going to help him with all his angry feelings. And here we go. Maurice. This is the time for you to say and do just about anything you like and I'll let you know if there's something you may not do. I did my normal spiel, sat down. And I'll never forget, and I have no idea how he had the strength to do this. He opened this dolls house and stamped on it and put his foot right through this very hard plastic, and then just kicked it around the room before I had, I just didn't have the chance even to call anybody or to say, oh, no. I I just was in such shock that the power of this eight, 9-year-old boy's foot had been able to smash through this house, and he ran out and the TA went and found him and eventually, he was very brave. He did come back in. He was absolutely distraught that he had destroyed this and he thought he was gonna be in so much trouble. And what he was able to say to me, and I think, what a brave boy and thank you, Maurice, wherever you are now for teaching me this. He said, you showed me a room with all this amazing, wonderful stuff in it. And what you don't know is that yesterday we moved into a hostel and me and all my brothers and my mom and my dad and my brother are living in one room. And we don't have any toys. And then you've got this beautiful doll's house and I'll never have a house like that. And so he needed to destroy it. And it's really made me think about, as a play therapist, what it is like for a child living in deprivation to come into a room that is often very. Very resourced and what that says to them. And does that hamper their therapy? Does it hamper that relationship? And actually what I went on to do with Maurice is not have so much stuff. In fact, it's really changed my practice. I have a lot of stuff now in bags and in boxes, so it's not all out there on display. And I got to know the kitchen staff at that school, and every Wednesday they would save all the boxes for me, the egg boxes, the cartons, and there would be a big pile of these for Maurice to stamp on and for Maurice and I to stamp on, he needed to be joined in that huge anger he had for his situation. And it does make me think about. Over providing something for a child that might cause them more distress and teasing that out with the child.'cause I also don't want to then deprive them of something in the therapy room. But I was so pleased with myself for this beautiful room in this beautiful dolls house. But actually for him, it said, you've not taken me into account. You don't know my life. So thank you to Maurice and many of the children who've helped me think about that, and I'm sure I'm often still making lots of mistakes with that.

Philippa: 34:02

It makes me think about the opposite, really. So when I was doing my training, I worked in Luton again, it was homelessness with teens who, and so it was a, an overnight stay. You had to be referred from the housing department to, to, to where I was. So it was a placement that I stayed. And worked through the summer. So I was paid work through the summer and so these kids were 16 to 22, I think, something like that. And so they had to be referred. It was three three beded, and you'd get, get this list of names of, and they would come with this little printout that they'd held up at a camera so you could see who it was and and then they would be allowed into this little room where you provided them with very basic foods and a washing machine so they could wash their clothes, and then they'd get a bed overnight. There was four beds, I think. And. And a room for us sleeping in. When I think back now, I think, oh my God. Do you know what I mean? I was in this room. But anyway'cause I was only in my early twenties at the time. I wasn't really very much older than the kids that were coming in the door. However, it was, look it was a nice thing. And I guess what. What I was thinking about when you were playing, talking about over providing was that these young people used to come into this overnight accommodation. Like I said, they were allowed two or three nights so they could leave the things there and it allowed them to then go and, go and see if they could sort benefits without having to take everything with them. Or, they could use the phone if. They could, if you felt it was safe to come through the other side of the door, but they would often play in there because there was very limited stuff in there because sometimes people would get angry or they would take things so there wasn't a lot of things. But so that there was not the temptation to take it with them or whatever it is, but they still found ways to play and often word games or ARDS or things like that, that they connected and sometimes they knew one another and they'd gone together and a couple of them had got, sometimes there were four strangers and me in there, but there was still. Away, I think that they found to connect, because you had to be in the place by, I think it was eight 30, so that people couldn't co turn up with alcohol. The idea was, but of course, if you've got nothing to do all day and that wasn't always the case but they did come and yeah, you would then have a couple of hours before, before everybody slowly drifted off to bed. And people would be going and having showers and cooking a bit of food for themselves or whatever, but generally there was a general area and yeah, they found ways I'd forgotten about that. It was a really nice summer work, really, but they would be playful with one another. Sometimes it was like taking the Mickey outta one another, but in a really kind of playful way in these, young people. Yeah, they had got two nights accommodation and they didn't know where they were gonna sleep after two nights or if they'd get any more. Some of them were able, we were able to find more permanent accommodation. Some of them they weren't, but they could still find moments of connection through play. And that's what I think it was. It was connecting with the other people in that place, in that same situation through playfulness. And sometimes, we'd find a pack of cards and have a game of cards or, yeah. So that was, those were really nice. And those are, really hard times for those young people, but they still found playfulness within that.

Julie: 37:47

That's where the hope is. And I'm going back to thinking about that Maslow's Triangle. Which is quite stark in a sense. I think it's got sort of five levels to it, and you move from one to the other and play it. Although it's not mentioned in that, that triangle would be up towards the top, the middle and top end. But what you are saying there is that capacity for humans. Those young people you were working with to bring playfulness even into that situation at the very bottom of Maslow's Triangle of getting your basic needs met. But can that also be done with some playfulness, word play, mucking around together and it's making me think about charities and government services and services. That are really looking after or at least looking out for those physiological needs, those then safety needs. Whether there's capacity to build in some playfulness, not just for the children, but to add in even that sort of playful connection while you're filling in a benefits form while you're filling in a. Yet another form to move from temporary to permanent accommodation if there can be that respectful lightness and playfulness. Even within those interactions, if you go to the town hall here and our town hall in Lambeth is, on the main street and every, it has got a big glass window and everybody can see everybody who's waiting in the housing department. It's a really public space and it's right next to a bus stop, which it is great to get to, but it means it's very public when you are asking for accommodation in lamb. And I look at the children and young people who are with their families and their suitcases often in, in that building, waiting to get their ticket and waiting to go forward to a desk. There's no play area. There's no, as you say, pack of cards. There's no lightness on the, there's nothing that soft that. I'm just thinking about the starkness of that and yet that capacity for many humans, children and adults and elders to be able to do a little playful thing, even in the most dire circumstances.

Philippa: 40:26

And I wonder how people's experience changes how our body and nervous system changes with. Just a change of environment to be more playful. So I've this week I've done a, an interview with a guy named Joe Franks. It'll be out in the middle of of August, about. Play and the justice system. And one of the things that he was talking about is very recently they've started in custody suites. So when people are arrested to designate a child. Sal Really? He didn't call it a sal, he called it some something a bit softer than that, but really it's a sal, isn't it? Where somebody's being held with a door and they can't get out. But what he was saying was, instead of having that very plain. Paint that's in there. I don't think I've been in a cell really, but that there's more colorful and there's more like murals on the wall and there's some fidget toys and some balls, and the recognition that maybe younger children or, younger teenagers might need something a little bit different in order to make the experience more bearable, less frightening. We know. But I wonder if, we did that for everybody. And that's not about saying that when you go to prison, you should have this really nice time or when you're held in custody because you've, you've committed an offense or possibly committed offense. That, that we should, that it should be all. Sweetness and lights and fairy dust and or whatever it is. But I just wonder about if there was just a way of connecting, what difference would that make? Do you know what I mean? Rather than this disconnection that these things. Create. So the people standing in line with a suitcase where there's nothing soft around them, it's very disconnecting from the world and from what you are doing, isn't it? You've got to be insular and it's quite fearful. And then, our body is in that fear response. And so then we're in the fight, flight, freeze stuff. And again, if you are locked in a cell or something like that, it. You are invoking this fear, and I guess that's what it's designed for, to make people scared so they don't want to come back, but we completely know it's not working. So I wonder if we tried connection, what would that be about? And I'm not saying that we paint Disney, in people's cells or stuff like that, but just something that kind of says, we'll connect with you. We don't like what you did, and we, there's gonna, there's gonna, I guess what we've talked about before and there might be a consequence for that. And there, there might be other things for that. But actually, fundamentally, you are a human being and as another human being I want to connect with you.

Julie: 43:33

Yeah. And thinking. UN convention on the rights of the child. The right to relax, play and take part in cultural and artistic activities. That is the right for every child. And the definition is under 18. At 18 and under for the UN Convention. I. That's, that right exists. Whether you are in custody, whether you are in poverty, whether you are living in a palace, whether you are living in a beautiful apartment overlooking a river, whether you are in school, whether you are in an afterschool club, whether you are in the queue waiting for housing that right to relax. And I think I'm really interested that they use that word first to relax. Play, I know you're talking about the sensory system, that capacity to exhale and reduce your regulation. Come down from hyper into something that could be relational. And I just see so missed many missed opportunities to just have. A playful interaction with somebody in a waiting room, to, to play peek boo with a child in the waiting room at the gps or in the food bank queue and I see wonderful people who both are in the queue or other servers in the queue who are able to just engage everybody or a little one. In a bit of peekaboo or making a little paper doll out a piece of paper and just keeping connection through play, even though something really pretty awful is going on. But for the child to have themselves regulated by the adults around them. And I so often see this, and I know I do this myself on the many buses that I get to go on Philippa and I appreciate the poverty of public transport where you are. I'm forever on buses and trains, and I'm one of those people that does interact with other people on the train and on the bus and get conversations going. And if there's a child or a pet, I'll often be quite playful with them and I can see the relief. The parent's face that somebody's liking their child. Somebody's just lifting them for 10 minutes, not physically lifting them, but lifting the atmosphere. Because often a parent and a child has got into a real tussle and they're sitting there seething each other on the train or the bus, and I'll sometimes just say, oh gosh, mom, that's a really tough day. You are both having, yeah. And then the little one will look up. And then just playing something, you know in this, the mist on the window or just being interested in their new trainers that they've got or noticing their hair or something playful about the child. And I can see just the lightness that often comes then to the parents if somebody else has noticed us. And noticed us in a good way. Yeah, I'm having a tough time and I was shouting at my kid 10 minutes ago and it was all a bit awful because, I don't know where I'm gonna get food tonight, but just being another person around that family, and I'll never see them again, but just for that five or 10 minutes saying, I recognize you're in a tough place. Isn't your child just beautiful? And noticing that with them. And then you can see the gentler way that they get off the bus with their child. And just because they've been recognized as somebody who's, suffering or in pain or having a tough day. And I haven't rolled my eyes. I haven't totted I've just tried to be with them in it. Gently, and not everybody accepts that or wants that, but just adding that playfulness in because I never know what situation anybody is in, what sort of tough day they're having and somebody just offering that kindness, I think can lift the situation and make things a bit more hopeful.

Philippa: 48:05

And I think it's that connection, isn't it? I think this is probably a good place to start. Start is that poverty definitely has an impact. It has an impact on everything, on your day to day being on your access to things, even on your potential. You may. Have the potential to be the best footballer in, in, in the UK or in a club. But if you can't. Access the club. If you can't get spotted because you don't have the money to attend, it's gonna affect your whole life. It, if, if you can't afford the food to feed your child breakfast, it is going to, there is absolutely no doubt it is going to impact their day at school. There is no doubt that poverty has massive implications for everybody living in it. Some people have different resiliences, different structures, different supports and it doesn't affect everybody in the same way. We, and I just think in a world and in a time where there is so much abundance, nobody should be in poverty. And that's a whole political thing that we, this podcast is not about. But I guess to sum it up in a, in the positive is that even in those moments, we can find connection. And play can offer that connection, whether it's with the child on the boss, where play peekaboo or you stick your tongue out or you just smile at them. So that they know that you have seen them. And like you say, you are interested in to the young. People who are homeless, who played word games in a pack of cards, or the kids who play, find a can and play kick the can in the park or whatever it is. There is connection available. We need to do a whole lot more. And we need to, in my view, the world needs to just be softer and play can help us be softer and kinder, but we can do it and you can. See it and we've both experienced it which gives us that hope. I think that we can together make a kinda more playful, more connected world.

Julie: 50:30

Yeah. And Philippa, thank you for summing that up. And what I'm really aware of having had this conversation is. How much my clients, my friends, people in my area, people I've got to know through my work who are experiencing or have experienced poverty, how much they have shown me and taught me about playfulness still existing in their lives, that they have not disappeared as people. Because they are living in poverty. They have not disappeared as playful people because they're living in poverty. And I have had some of my best nights or best social events with a family I'm thinking of who are living in deep poverty, but love a game of Ludo. And I have never played such competitive ludo as I have. A hotel room with a family who've been living in that hotel room for many weeks and months. But my goodness, on that hotel bed, could they play a great game of voodoo? And I have never laughed as much as I did that night, and I'm very grateful to that family and other families in my life who teach me that you don't need money and a great number of resources to be able to play and still connect.

Philippa: 51:56

Yeah. Yeah. So that's a great way to end. So thank you for listening to this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy. Hit the like button subscribe, and we'll see you next time. Bye-bye.