Episode 18 Play and the impact of disadvantaged communities

In this episode of 'Pondering Play and Therapy,' hosts Julie and Philippa discuss the significant reduction of play spaces for children and teenagers within communities affected by poverty and deprivation. Reflecting on changes over the past 10-15 years, they explore how budget cuts and austerity measures have led to the loss of essential community resources like parks, youth clubs, and play schemes. The discussion emphasises the importance of unstructured play for children's development, including reading social cues, risk assessment, and building community ties. They contrast their childhood experiences with current conditions and highlight the need for policies supporting accessible play spaces for all children, in line with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. The episode invites listeners to reflect on these issues and share their own views.

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Transcript

Episode 18 Play and the Impact of Community Poverty

 [00:00:00] 

Julie: Welcome to pondering Play and Therapy with me, 

Philippa: Julie, and me Philippa. And this week we are going to be talking about. Poverty within a community, poverty or deprivation in our living areas, whether that be Newcastle Stoke on Trent London, Cornwall, Bristol, wherever the loss of in my view, the spaces that children, young people, teenagers, have to play to hang out to just be in. And this is come about one really from some of the people that we've been interviewing and talking to and how their drive really is to bring this space is back for children and young people. The drive to understand the importance of play in our [00:01:00] everyday lives, which is why we are doing this podcast that isn't designed to teach them something or formally teach them something or be structured, but just to go to the park and hang out to be a teenager and hang around the street corner or go to a youth club or be able to go to a skate park and things like that. And we know that there are lots of amazing places that are available for children to go, but in my view particularly there has definitely been a huge reduction in the spaces that children and young people can be again, in my view, that comes from the deprivation and the lack of resources that are available in our communities, particularly over the last 10 or 15 years during austerity, where councils have had to cut budgets, cut spaces, [00:02:00] and that has impacted on how accessible things are for people and children and teenagers, just to be kids really.

Julie: So that really what we're gonna be talking about this week, Julie. 

We've been talking a lot about what was available for us many years ago when we were children, and we recognize that our experience might be the same or different to people of a similar age, but how, particularly over the last 10, 15 years that the loss of services provided by local councils.

Julie: Has really diminished. We've lost the toy libraries. We've lost the Sure Start program. We've lost a lot of youth clubs, youth workers. There's been a huge loss of the services that have generally been around play schemes in the summer and so on and if you are living in an area [00:03:00] or living in a family where there is a lack of financial resources as well, you don't have capacity to buy that. You don't have the capacity to pay to go to a club or to pay to go to a nursery or pay to go to a climbing wall or something. It's that more community based resource that we are seeing is really in your area or my area has really diminished over the time we've been living there. 

Philippa: And I don't think we should have to pay for all these things. Julie is my view. We should be able to go to the park with kids. Teenagers should be able to hang out in spaces that are safe for them to be in. We should be able to. Go and do a Rollie ply down a bank, and we should be able to get up to a bit of, bit Chief as a kid and be in spaces that [00:04:00] are safe. That you don't have to be organized. And there's nothing wrong with organized clubs and, brownies and climbing walls and all those things are amazing and great, but they're all adult led. They're all adult driven they are expensive and they are timetabled. You have to go at this time. Whereas I think community space, being able to play in a community is different. It's, there's a difference to it. There's a. Yeah, there's a self-efficacy that comes from doing those things and I work and grew up in stoke on Trent, which we've been talking about, and. In 2019, it was ranked 13 outta 317 districts as one of the most deprived areas in our country, 13. So there's 13 above, above us that are more deprived. So [00:05:00] I dread to think what that's like.

And what I can say is that the area. Is not cared for by the local authority. So the bins are overflowing in the streets. They're not, they're not emptied. The population have low income or low unemployment. And with that there comes lots of other challenges for councils and challenges for families, and that's an episode we're gonna talk about differently but with that can come substance misuse and alcohol misuse and homelessness, and that in itself affects then spaces like parks and community areas and I know that there are, stoke on Trent particularly has got lo of parks, probably more than most cities. But there's also lots of needles, lots of alcohol bottles, [00:06:00] lots of alcohol cans, lots of rubbish that you wouldn't necessarily want your children to go and hang out and play in there. That's not all parks in our area, but quite, quite a few. There's a car park that I park my car on, I've told you, and unless we ring up and complain, I. There, the rubbish just builds up in there. There's, bottles, cans, there was a car seat and a push chair in there for about two months, and it takes people parking on there to phone the council and complain about it. Then they come and clear it up, but they don't do it on a regular basis. And this is not about blaming the councils really. Because I'm guessing they don't have the resources to do the regular be collections. There's no park keepers when I was growing up, it there's a place called Hanley and there was a Hanley Park and there used to be a bowling green there and a bandstand and fountains and all these sorts of things. And I know. I'm looking back with rose collared glasses I'm [00:07:00] sure, but there was park keepers, I remember park keepers and those sorts of things. There isn't the funds for the local authority to have park keepers designated for single parks. I'm sure there are that go around and maintain the parks as much as they possibly can. This is not about saying it doesn't exist at all, but it's it's like at the bare bones that these people can't keep it to the standard. That makes it as accessible as previously. It's not for the lack of will. I don't think, this is not about saying people are awful, are doing horrible jobs. It's just that there isn't the ability for them to do it.

They have to make decisions, don't they? And that's what I think is just how do you play in those sorts of things. 

Julie: Yeah. How do children and young people play particularly outdoors with other people? Other [00:08:00] people who live nearby, other people who share that space? And something you said earlier on about how can children or young people be outside and playing in a community space and it be safe. And I went, oh, is it is it possible to have it as always safe? And what does safe mean? Thinking about that element of testing oneself as we get older, as we grow up having small amounts of risk, small amounts of being able to assess, is this a risky situation, is this not? Not as in life threatening and dangerous, we are not advocating for that, but that element of even, am I now big enough to go on that bit of play equipment? What do I do if I fall over and I've got a cut? What do I do if, yeah, I've spun too much on [00:09:00] the roundabout and I feel sick? That assessing of risk and managing a bit of risk without that always needing to be parent led. And how does a younger child. Lean on some older children to work out what to do. How do older children help out those younger children? And then how is community built outside without the adults scaffolding everything? 

Philippa: I suppose. Yeah. I suppose when I meant safe, I meant that there is a space that is safe for them to do that exploration that isn't. That hasn't got rubbish in it. Yeah. That hasn't got cars going through it, that, that kind of thing, rather than safe as in, they're not gonna hurt themselves. 'cause you like you saying playing 

Julie: can hurt. Yeah. It's not the purpose of it, but that sense of, I get over small things while I'm playing disappointments, somebody's been on the swing [00:10:00] for 40 minutes and I'm not getting a turn and I need to go home. Now how do I deal with that? How do I do? I just say, okay they're on the swing and I'll come back another day. Or do I say, you've been on there a really long time can go, and that sense of being slightly unnerved, slightly scared, slightly comfort zone as a. And finding ways through that without an adult needing to scaffold everything. Yeah, just really thinking about that. And you live further north in the country than I do. I'm in a London borough and something I noticed has been happening in my borough, especially on the council estate, on the social housing estates, of which we have some wonderful ones, one some between the wars and then another lot in the sixties and seventies. Very open spaces, lots of green spaces within these estates and that [00:11:00] they've won awards for how well they've been designed. But of course, they've come with a lot of no ball games, signs all over the place. And I can just see them, as you turn every corner on these estates. But what's begun to happen is either the council has been taking them down or they're very deliberately stamped on the No and put more. So it's more ball games. And underneath it they've put a basketball hoop now, which says, come and play. Come and. Be with your friends, come and try and get something through this hoop.

So changing that sign, rather than just taking the sign away. They've changed some of the signs to more ball games rather than no ball games, because that then says to children and young people and their families that it's okay to play out, and I [00:12:00] was lying in bed this morning at about seven. I was saying, okay, I'm ready to get up, ready to see Philippa ready to do this morning, and I could hear these toy voices and their neighbors over the back, probably a three, 4-year-old and a 9-year-old out in their back garden. They're lucky enough to have a little space, not a huge space. And they were playing some game about throwing a football and it had to stick onto a rug and the little girl was holding this rug for her brother. And my initial reaction was, how annoying, how frustrating is that? I want to have a lie in. And all I can hear is these two wee voices. Quite high pitch. And then, and I was thinking, but the opposite of that is I never hear children's voices.

What would it be like to never hear a little voice and can I [00:13:00] tolerate this? Yes, I can. I was about to get up anyway. And it is, it's also about how does. How does the whole community work together to accept that children come with voices and sounds and having children and young people playing outside has an impact on everybody.

But is that something that we can welcome or is it something we find annoying? 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. And I think children probably don't play outside for lots of reasons. Do they like, there's more cars, there's there's less space. And that's one of the things for me is that when I went to school, there's a big school and I lived on one estate and there were, there's a massive council of estate close by. So this school, there was two schools actually, and they were fed by loads of different estates. And the school that I went to, I was really lucky. It was a [00:14:00] very sports-based school. There was a swimming pool, there was a, an all weather pitch. There was a hockey and netball pitch. There was, our school was big enough that it had a cross country track that went through and around it and around the parks, down by the river Trent and. So we played outside, we did loads of sports, and then at the weekend and in the evening we went and hung around and played on the football pitch or, roll, did rolly pollies even as teenagers down the banks. 'cause the all weather pitch was at the top of a hill and. And that's gone. There is no school there now. And slowly over, over the years, they sold off parts of the grounds to build houses and to build other things on. And the area where I grew up in was, it was coal mines. There was three coal mines and there was pot banks, so they made, it was just a massive pot banks, and they don't exist [00:15:00] anymore.

Julie: There's what's a pot bank? Philippa. 

Philippa: So it's where all your pottery was made. So really good pottery, like Royal Dalton or Spade was based in Stoke on Trent. So it was a massive industrial town. And it was. Thriving really. And there was lots of people in work in an industry, which was really hard work, but there was a lot of community around that and there was space to grow up, but then the mines closed. The pot banks closed and. Then the councils then have less money, coming in, and they're not topped up by the government. So then they get, I guess they have to find revenue from somewhere to try and keep things going. And they sell off bits of the school. So the green spaces get less. The places where you hang out get less.

And I know that [00:16:00] this week that when we are recording this, although it'll be. A few weeks out at Shor. They are at this moment in time, they're trying to. Keep the steel factory open there, British Steel and it's the last factory, the last steel factory in the uk and they're trying to keep that open and the government, I know actually the day that we're recording this have got an emergency meeting to. To find a way to keep it open and they are already devastated by the reduction of steel production. That I think if that factory goes, I've been listening to lots of the people talk there that it's not just about the workers that work in those factories or in those industries. It's the things that feed them the, the. Lorry drivers, the cafes that serve the lunch, the shops, the pubs, the restaurants, the it's, [00:17:00] it has a knock on effect. You might shut one mine or one steel plant, or I don't know, whatever it is. And you might lose a thousand people might lose the jobs directly, but indirectly that ripple becomes much greater. And then those people aren't paying taxes. They aren't paying cancel tax at the same level. They're not paying road tax. 'cause maybe they can't afford to put the road on the car. They're not, the businesses start to go outta business. So there's no. Business tax being paid into the local authorities.

There's no council tax. There's lots of things. And then our councils then don't have the money, do they? To fund the libraries or the swimming pools or the, so it's, I think it's just a whole cycle and what ends up being squeezed out is. [00:18:00] Is our children's play because the youth workers go and the youth clubs go, and the goes and the libraries go and that is fundamentally in my view, the most important thing that we should be doing is helping our kids to play. In a way and we lose it. Yeah, I could, it makes me so mad. Really? It makes me so mad 

Julie: the listeners can't see your face, but it's a mad face folks going on here. But yeah, Phil, this is what we don't hear in the closure of a steel factory or the closure of a business whether it's in Scotland, Wales, island. In, in any country, we hear about the number of job losses, but what we don't hear about, but what you are speaking about there is the knock on effect, the down the line effect on of, amongst other things, the development of children and seeing [00:19:00] play. You and I and many of our listeners see play as an essential, as essential as eating, sleeping, breathing.

We, we need play to develop as a human being and to lose some of the spaces, many of the spaces and opportunities to play because of poverty in the community born of the closure of a company that's not spoken about and yet. When we were looking earlier before we came on this morning about the UN Convention on the rights of the child.

So this is the charter for all countries who've signed up to the UN Charters, one of the rights of the child number 31. Is the right for every child, no matter which country you are in, no matter what your economic status is to relax, [00:20:00] play, and take part in culture and artistic activities so that, that's enshrined in that UN convention, the right to relax and play.

And that's being lost. And what they make really clear in that convention is that it's not the adult's version of what play looks like. It needs to be called Play by the Child. So subjectively, the child needs to be able to say, I've chosen this. I like doing it, I'm enjoying it. I want more of it then we can call it play.

If it's in a school where the teacher has chosen to do a lesson where the children are playing in order to learn, that doesn't count because that is not child chosen, child led, and is often not that as enjoyable for the children as the teacher may have thought it would be. And I'm saying [00:21:00] that as a teacher who's set up those activities many times, but for a child, a young person to be able to with friends or on their own. Some children don't like playing with other people or need time on their own, just discovering on their own, and they will call it enjoyable. Then it's meeting that convention. But we are, what we're worried about is that is being lost. 

Philippa: It's been eroded away, isn't it? Just that's what I think it is.

Just eroded a little bit at a time that we have to make a little cut there. So we'll just close a couple of the play centers. We just need to cut there. So we're just gonna cut the Sure. Start budget, but we'll replace it with health visitors. Oh, okay. So we now need to just take away a few health visitors so that's gonna go so we'll sell off this piece of land. Oh, it's [00:22:00] just a waste ground. There's nobody uses it. But actually that's where kids play and they make dens and they role play all the stuff that they see going on in the world and try and make sense of it together, not with an adult telling them.

Do you know what I mean? But now we've built houses on it and we'll just sell off half this football pitch. But we still got one football pitch. But now we can only. Play one match on a Sunday morning and instead of four matches on a Sunday morning. It slowly has been eroded away without any thought given to the impact in my view that has on our children now and will have our future, future adults

Julie: but yeah.

From the, from the country of Scotland and where there is this huge shift, there certainly in, in recent months clay [00:23:00] Scotland has you, you explain a bit about that interview Philippa. 

Philippa: Yeah. So play Scotland, and I think Wales have got enshrined in law that the local authorities have to provide playspace for children, it has to be playspace, but like you said, play space that's based on them being able to lead it. It's not a play space. That is oh, this is in a school or whatever it is, this outdoor space where children can go and choose their own types of play and it's a really fabulous interview and she. Margarita, I'll explain more, but it's about how that is then measured really in a meaningful way rather than just saying, oh, we've got this li little bit. And I suppose and there is a Play England and there's a play Northern Ireland and there are people doing this work. There is [00:24:00] the 1001 committee, which Hillary Kennedy, which was our first interview that we released. She talks about that. There are lots of initiatives that are going on there that are trying to bring play back or raise it up the agenda, but I really don't think it's very high up the agenda. And it's not just based in, this is just my view, it's not just based on. An acknowledgement of, yes, we've got these play spaces. What I would say is like Stoke on Trend has a lot of parks and they could be designated as play spaces, but they are UN camp and they are uncared for, and. Would you allow your child, are they really a play space?

They are a space where play could happen, but are they really a play space? And I guess that's the bit for me is it's [00:25:00] that deprivation of community that if your, the area that you live in doesn't feel cared for. By the people that should be caring for it, then how are you gonna care for it?

How are you gonna feel within that community? How are if you walk down the street and the bins are overflowing and there's dog poo on the floor, because actually why would anybody clean the dog poop? Because there's rats running round how are you gonna let your kids out and play?

I wouldn't let my child out to play. In a place like that. And actually there's so many amazing in our cities, all cities, there are so many amazing things and there are amazing people, but I think this one, it is, it's a top down thing that actually the people leading our country in some ways need to value our communities. Because we can [00:26:00] enshrine it in law and hopefully that starts to shift change, but it is a bigger conversation. Do you think? I don't know. 

Julie: I think what you're saying there is sometimes the infrastructure is there. The park is there, the outdoor space is there. The signs can be changed. A basketball hoop can go up. But what it also needs is for the local community of people to feel that is a space where their children can go and how can that be supported and possibly funded and measured in the sense of measuring in order to see it as a good thing that it's worth putting more money into. I know there are initiatives around the country where parents will get together and say, we really want our kids to be playing out.

And they take it in turns for one or two of them to be out on the street to keep an eye on the [00:27:00] kids. But the children are, other than that, very free to go up and down. They can be on their bikes, they can. Marking the play the pavement in chalk. They can be playing whatever ways they choose, but there's that kind of middle ground between a parent or two being out and about with them because we need to remember that many children and young people haven't ever had this experience.

It's not that they started as a four, 5-year-old going out on their scooter with a big brother or sister. But they haven't learned the kind of skills needed to be out on the street or out in a play park on their own without their parents. So it is, it needs to be staged in the sense of in stages and supported by parents or supported by older young people.[00:28:00] 

So that gradually becomes known again. So is there a sense that we've forgotten how to be out on the street? Have we forgotten? Have our young people and children never had that opportunity growing up. They've gradually released their parental needs. I'm thinking, just a little while ago I was up in Scotland visiting friends and family.

Two sort of very contrasting experiences. One, I was staying with a friend and a 15-year-old daughter, and it's a while since that I've visited them maybe a year and a half or so, but now this lovely 15-year-old is out all the time with her friends and comes home for 10 minutes to, inhale some food, then she's back out again.

A lot of what she's doing is walking around the streets, the park, [00:29:00] chatting with her friends and trusted to come home when she's ready. And, but she's out with her friends that she spent all day with at school and others, and I can really sense that huge sense of freedom for her. The area that she lives in is an area where that can happen and is common.

But by contrast, I then, passed a little girl in a play, tiny little play park in a sort of housing scheme, little play park with a few little things in it. She was about eight or nine and she was there just with her dad, but her dad was sitting on the bench on his phone and, helping his child to be in a play space.

But she had nobody to play with and she really lacked energy. She was going from one thing to the other, like almost like a chore. And I felt for the dad as well because he, it is he didn't [00:30:00] know what to do with her. The equipment is too small. He couldn't get on any of it, and she was too big for him to join her.

I just felt, yes, there was a play part there. Tiny little play part. And there was a child, but she wasn't really playing. And I felt sad seeing that this dad was, doing his best, taking his kid to the park, but there was no joy in that for either of them. Yeah. So I think, yeah, that contrast, 

Philippa: and I think it is about, there are some amazing stuff out there. And there are, I guess there are, clubs and that help that, scouts and brownies and guides and they do go for days and weekends and they get that space out and I visit my. Young person who's at university actually down by you. And I go to the Olympic Park and actually there's an amazing play area there with a big pirate [00:31:00] ship it's almost once you go in, it's almost like you are in, you are not in London anymore, you are in this kind of forest. And it's absolutely amazing. And actually. Round by the ome and all spaces like that. There's lots of green space around there. Yeah. And they are building around the edges and they're trying to keep it.

And that, that really feels like you are not in London 'cause there's not many cars coming up and down it's quite busy out in Stratford way. But actually in that little bit of the park, there's lots of these houses. I am assuming that they were the athletes. Where the athletes stay that they now turned into flats and houses and stuff like that.

Yeah. But actually being in that space is lovely. It's calm and there is a, an amazing play area. There's lots of green, there's little of, there's bits of cafes in it. Feels like a really lovely community and you do hear and see children out [00:32:00] playing, particularly in this kind of big adventure area that's right in the middle of this this built up very busy place. But it doesn't feel like it. So we can do it, because that's not that old, that area is not been built very long as it was built for the Olympics. Yeah, and then converted. So we can do it. And we can do it really well. 

Julie: And there, as you said, there are, I know where I am in London.

There are amazing parks, amazing resources, but the ones that are unkempt and like you, there are areas where I wouldn't want to walk through that park because it is dirty, it's smelly, there is dog poo, yet the bins are overflowing. Why would a child or a young person want to go there to hang out with their friends?

Because it's. It is really unpleasant, but equally at the other end of the street there are gorges open spaces and big play parks. So what I'm [00:33:00] hearing that we are saying is it's not so much that the spaces aren't built. There are many of them there, but being, Kempt makes a big difference.

But also how do we help children and young people who, you know, during Covid. The parts were locked the swings were tied up. There was nowhere for children or young people to go and have some people, some of our youngsters lost any skills to be out on their own and to be that little bit nervous of going, even just going to the shop on their own to the corner shop.

Is that happening? 

Philippa: I do think we have lost some things like libraries. You could go into a library, and you could let and you, your, as a child or a young person, you could browse books and pick your own book and yes, it, you were taken there. But there was a, there's a bit of freedom to that and they often put things on where that [00:34:00] brought the community together.

Certainly school holidays and things like that. And certainly when. When I was younger and even past me, we had play schemes. I don't think that you had them where you were bought, you would in the summer holidays, the council put on play schemes and you would have to bou can. So there wasn't, not everybody in our area could go, you booted on. So some of them might be doing archery in, in some of the local parks. Others, there'd be bigger ones like going to West Midland, safari Park, or there might be just at Hanley Park, there'd be a whole sports day and you would pay a nominal fee like too quick. But if you didn't, couldn't afford it, then you could go, you'd have to obviously prove that you couldn't, but you could go on and then your par, your parents didn't stay with you. There was youth workers in this youth scheme, and throughout the summer, it wasn't every day, but it was [00:35:00] probably two or three days each week in the summer holidays that you would go along to this play scheme with people from all over the county that you didn't know and you do these events and it was absolutely fantastic. And then you'd. Go home again at the end of the day, and you might never see these kids again until the next play scheme and things like that have stopped, and Sure. So it was a massive thing, certainly up here. And they, in rural communities, they would bring a bus round and in the bus would be like a toy library of toys and a book library of books.

You could go and, swap the kitchen that you'd got for your kid, for the, they'd come every two weeks in rural areas. You could then go and swap it for a slide. So you, and you met other moms there and other dads there and so we have lost that. We might still have the spaces. And we definitely, there are pockets of those that [00:36:00] happen, but I guess as a general expectation. They just don't exist anymore. 'cause there isn't any money is there? 

Julie: I think that the money is tied up with it a lot. I know here there are a lot of holiday clubs, there are a lot of events that go on school holidays. But you need to have there are some council sponsored spaces, always. Some schools put on holiday clubs and there are subsidized spaces, so I do see that still exists. But the, just what I feel sad about is that capacity to just go out of your front door or down your stairs or down the lift or out your front gate, wherever you are living, and meet a pal and do something that you are choosing to do and how necessary that is for development for our brains, [00:37:00] for our social development, that doesn't seem to exist so much you had a figure earlier on about. You gave me a figure earlier on about one in four. 

Philippa: Yeah. One in four young children go out and play in the street compared to the grandparents' generation, which would be nearly all which be us. Yeah. Which was two thirds go, played out two or three times a week, which is, there's a, that's a significant reduction really

Julie: but I'm surprised as high as. I don't see any children playing out. Yeah. Here. 

Philippa: I suppose it depends on what they classed as playing out. Is it playing out in the street or is it I think 'cause of where it came from, it was probably the free play that you were talking about. You know That we are talking about.

Yeah. Which is 

Julie: different to being taken to a friend's house. For a play date. That's what's called down here, a play [00:38:00] date. Dunno if you'd call it there up at your part of the country. But a parent with organizing with another parent for you to visit each other and often the parents still staying around.

That's quite different. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: But that just being able to go outside and seeing who you meet or just going and calling on a friend who lives six doors away from you and seeing if they can come out and play. I'm surprised if that statistic of one in four is about that, but I'd be really delighted if it was, but I don't see any evidence of it. I never see. Somebody just calling in on another child. 

Philippa: And I guess why are we why am are we so sad about it? I'm mad about it. I am mad because I think all our cities, certainly in the north I'm sure they are in the south as well, but in the north and I'm from the Midlands, but I'm quite passionate about that. There's been a lot [00:39:00] lost, a lot of industry's been lost and devastated our communities. And that's a whole other thing. But there is an importance to why we're saying this. What is it that is so important that our kids are out? Why is it important that they go and play in the parks and have this free play and go and call with their mates?

Why are we even having this conversation? 'cause if they're playing elsewhere, what does it matter? 

Julie: It's because it's their choice. It's that self agency. It's their capacity to make decisions, to meet a crossroads of some sort and make a decision about it that. Capacity to get along with or not get along with somebody else, another young person, and find a way through to find a resolution. All the things we've been talking about in other episodes about [00:40:00] rupture and repair and about saying sorry or not saying, sorry. All of that comes adult to child of course. But when it's child to child, young person to young person, that's where I can see. We grow into adults, into stronger, more robust adults when we've had the capacity to try things out while playing.

Philippa: And do you think some of it is about, we actually start to understand social cues and body language and how so there's the rupture and repair. There's the how we get along, but it's being able to read that. You are pushing this kid on the swing or you're spinning them on the roundabout and then you can see that they start to get a bit green or a bit tense and you stop.

'cause you are starting to read the body language of other people. Yeah. You can see that they're angry. So you've got your [00:41:00] parents, but now you've got, these are the people and that you can. Because you can't do that in a text. You can't do it over a headphone when you are playing your Xbox or you can't at school you get some free play, but there's lots of adults that are mitigating all those sorts of things.

When you are in the middle of it and you are trying to negotiate how you are gonna hang out or play or whatever, you've got to be reading quite a few people to know, are you on track or are you not? 

Julie: And reading yourself and that, that sense of knowing what to do when you don't know what to do. That sense of, I'm stuck. I dunno what to do here, or I'm stuck on this piece of equipment. I'm stuck, stuck up this tree. And finding a way through that. And then the joy that comes when you've made it to the bottom of the tree in one piece. So it's also that sensory [00:42:00] motor development. When you are on unpredictable things, when the.

The environment that you are in isn't the same as it was yesterday, where there are things slightly different. How, and your body is growing all the time, of course, at this age. So learning that actually I'm too big for that equipment now. I just, I get stuck if I try and go down the slide. Okay, but how else could I go down the slide?

Because my bottom might not fit in it. But can I go backwards on my hands and knees and just that. Capacity to be flexible, to find new ways through things. And all of that can happen in an organized way when you go to a trampoline park or you go to a climbing wall or a monkey ape tree swinging activity.

No, go, wait. That's the.

That there's something, and I think [00:43:00] it's fantastic that all of that exists and has developed, but it's become a bit sanitized, that's what I see as, and it's time limited. Your slot. 

Philippa: And you can't get to mischief. That is the biggest thing. That's what I do in my nieces and yesterday I was out with a friend and her granddaughter and I, the best thing is to get them up to mischief because kids don't get up to mischief. You have to break the rules a little bit. You have to push the boundaries to know how far you can push. Yesterday I was out with my friend and her granddaughter. And I'd had a cup of coffee and there'd been sugar on the side. And I'm not saying that you should always ignore your friends, but and this little granddaughter and her friend wanted to open the sugar and my friend had said no.

And then my friend was on the phone, so [00:44:00] I'd said. Let's open the sugar. So we opened the sugar and we put it in my coffee cup, and then I got tomato ketchup, and I tipped tomato ketchup in there. And then there's a little bit of milk left from the coffee, and we tipped the coffee in there and we tipped the sugar and we made this little potion in this cup in a really safe way. Do you know what I mean? But it was like a little bit of mischief. You're breaking the rules and you find out what's gonna happen. And that's really important, isn't it? And then we fed the plants with it, and cleaned it up. Oh, we cleaned our mess up and we put all the papers in the bin. So we stuck to some social norms, but we did have a little bit of mischief. And that's I think a part of being a kid is that when you are with your parents, you have to go up the steps and down the slide. When you are on your own, you can go up the slide the wrong way. And that's really important to go up the slide the wrong way and know that you can go up the slide the wrong way and then that you've left muddy footprints and now you've got to come down and figure out that actually I'm [00:45:00] gonna get a wet bum 'cause I've got to clean this. Or another kid is gonna say, what have you done that for?

And you negotiate those boundary breakings together. I'm not talking about. Really doing, going into criminality or anything. But part of being a kid is not following the rules and being able to figure out which rules you can push a little bit and what happens when you do that. Because actually those are the people that when they become adults are gonna push the boundaries and create amazing things and not just accept that this is how life works. They're gonna test those boundaries. And that's really important I think. And the thrill you get I was a boundary pusher. 

Julie: I was gonna say, you must have been a very mischievous child.

I was to a little extent, but not as openly as you. I think. I'm not telling my on this. But Philip, I'm thinking this is probably a good place to end, but I'd be really interested [00:46:00] to hear what other people think about this, because you and I, you particularly are very passionate about this. You've brought me into that passion a little bit this morning, so thank you. And we are hoping that we don't come across as two women who are just being nostalgic about what we had as children. But we are seeing the loss and, but we'd be really interested to hear, especially from parents of children and young people and children and young people themselves.

What do you think about what we've been talking about this morning? We would love to have some comments. And really invite comments that say I disagree with you, because that's how we get the conversations going, which is the point of this podcast is for us to say what we are thinking and be open to being challenged and educated by others who are closer to some of these experiences than we are. So [00:47:00] please as always subscribe, but also write us a comment and say. I think that was rubbish. I think I disagree or great. I really agree. We'd love to hear from you, but thank you for listening to pondering Play and.