Episode 10 Play, Rupture and Repair - Part 2

In this week’s episode, part two of our Rupture and Repair series, we ponder how play and playfulness can be a key role in the process of repair. We explore why rupture and repair are essential, not just for child development, but also for building strong relationships. The ability to repair is something that starts with adults modeling the process, as children need to experience and understand it before they can fully grasp the concept themselves. We also reflect on the nuances of saying sorry—does reconnection always need words? Is acknowledging a rupture essential for healing, or is there another way to mend? Tune in for a thoughtful discussion on the complexities of parent-child connection and the importance of repair.

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Transcript

Play, Rupture and Repair - part 2

​[00:00:00] 

Julie: to this episode with me, Julie. 

Philippa: And me, Philippa. And this week is part two of Rupture and Repair. Last time we thought more about the rupture moments in, particularly, a parent and child relationship where there's a break in that connection and it can be as small as not noticing your three year old has come in to show you their picture because you're in the middle of cooking dinner or having a chat with somebody else and they wander out to the big blowouts that you can have with teenagers where they're stomping upstairs and slamming the doors and there's all that Shouting and sometimes effing and jeffing. Those are the ruptures in our relationships and it happens with babies, sometimes when you walk past they might gurgle and put their [00:01:00] hands up and you don't notice because you're carrying the washing to put in the washing machine or something like that. And those moments rupture the relationship and we've talked a lot about that last week those incidents that can occur and this week we wanted to think more about how do we repair those and where does play and playfulness come into that and what is the importance of rupture and repair because this does help in child development, it helps in relationships, it helps lots of ways to have these ruptures and repairs as long as The adults certainly initially do the modeling of the repairs and then, we don't expect our children to always be able to repair.

It's a skill that they learn And we're going to think how that helps. Last week we talked about [00:02:00] shame, didn't we? Lots about shame and the impact that ruptures can have on self. And I guess the antidote to that is these really healthy repairs and how we help children not go into shame or come out of shame in a way that's scaffolded by their adults.

Does that

Julie: Mm

Philippa: feel like what we're going to talk about today, 

Julie: yeah, I think we ended last time said we're going to think about rupture and repair, but you're right, we did spend most of the episode last time thinking about actually what does a rupture look like, big and small, and the impact it can have. And we talked, think I remember we talked about the difference between guilt and shame, and we got to the end of the episode and realized that we hadn't talked about the second half, which is The crucial part, which is the repair. So we all recognize the small, big, medium, [00:03:00] noticed and unnoticed ruptures that go on from the beginning of the day to the end of the day 

Philippa: Mm hmm. 

Julie: I imagine it almost as an opening the door to say, right, let's come back together. sometimes there needs to be that moment or several moments or even several hours sometimes between the rupture and the repair give both parties or the many parties a chance to just go just to exhale to allow all that adrenaline to drain out at least to lessen. sometimes in certainly in my experience in my own life and with families I work with to do the repair too quickly Can mean that it will be a sort of begrudged, sorry, and [00:04:00] it's not really a repair that the sorry has come, perhaps in a school playground situation, children have had a fight, somebody's tripped somebody up, somebody's. Pulled somebody's hair, somebody's stolen somebody else's ball. And often the adult on duty. And I can see that in myself when I, know, was working in a school I would almost make the children say sorry to each other before they went back into class. But actually, when I look back at some of that now, children were not ready to say, well, they could say, sorry, because. me as the adult was asking them to, but actually on reflection now, I think keeping those children apart for the next couple of hours and then helping them gently to repair when they could genuinely reconnect have been far more helpful for those children. I can see [00:05:00] that was my need as the adult in charge of the playground to want the children to say sorry. But actually, when I look back at that now, there are so many begrudged sorries that I kind of squeezed out of many a child those playgrounds. Whereas if I had met them again at lunchtime, or even the next day, a much more meaningful repair might have been able to be. modeled and supported for them. So yeah, that's, that's where my head's been going and, and thinking about actually how crucial rupture and repair is. It's as though it builds our emotional muscles and living in a life where there is no rupture and therefore there are no repairs, me, doesn't make a good human. It is, it isn't human. It isn't. [00:06:00] recognizing the complexities of life. And Philippa, I don't know if you ever had this experience where you've never come across a book or a saying or an author or a film. And then in the space of a few hours, two people introduce you to that concept or that experience. And I had that experience just yesterday. I was talking to a professional friend about this whole concept of rupture and repair. And, and she, described, she said, do you know that the phrase about the sailor the, the smooth sea?

And I was going, no, I don't know that. She says, I'll send it to you later. And she did. And the saying is a smooth sea. Never made a skilled sailor, a smooth sea, never made a skilled sailor. And that evening I was talking to a completely [00:07:00] unconnected friend, and he was having a bit of a tough time in life at the moment.

And things are really, difficult for her and her family. And she gave it almost exactly the same saying. And I was like, I've never heard that a smooth sea never made a skilled sailor. And it's just, it makes me smile to think that I am really meant to hear that saying that we need in order to be skilled humans, in order to be skilled in relationship, to be able to be skilled in our jobs, in our lives, in the relationships that matter to us, keeping it all smooth. isn't going to build the skills that we need. And I know you had some stories earlier about your own parenting and trying to keep a smooth [00:08:00] sea, but John to tell us the story.

Yeah.

Philippa: yeah, and also what we need to come back to is, That we don't always have to say sorry, that ruptures can be repaired without ever uttering the word, I'm sorry, or I did something wrong. And we all, so let's, let's circle back to that, but yes, I will tell you the story of my therapeutic parenting, which ultimately really wasn't very therapeutic.

So when my child was born, I really wanted to be this calm, consistent, nurturing, very present parent. And what I have to say is that I wasn't, I have to say that, but I did try very, very hard not to shout or not to get cross or angry, but to really hold my parenting and my approach was quite consistent.

Always my tone, I might use the words like, [00:09:00] dying Mommy's a little bit cross right now, because that's not an okay thing to do. This is what we need, so I'm sure I would really talk in the same way. And I remember he was about 10, 11, sitting at the dining room table and wanted to go and watch The Simpsons.

And I'm saying, no, sweetie, you have to do your homework, you know, this is the rule and all those sorts of things. We resolved the issue about the homework, but he got up off the chair and ran into the lounge and was really, really, really upset, like really upset, sitting on the sofa. Then I went to sit next to him and was saying, babe.

What's the matter? We've got a plan now. This is what you're going to do. I said, yeah, I know. I know, mom. He said, but I never know when it's finished. I never know when you're not angry with me anymore. And that really made me reflect on my [00:10:00] parenting on this really consistent, calm, nice approach.

Was that my Søren didn't know if I was happy, if I was joyful, he probably knew I was joyful and excited, but that kind of level of happiness into crossness and when it was over. Because I didn't show it or he couldn't hear in my tone or in my voice a change into the like, okay, right now that is enough.

Because I tried to be this, this really consistent thing. And what it also had then was an impact. He went into his next year, at school when he was 11 we are very lucky to live in a really small village. So, there was only a few teachers who were really good.

Again, very calm and very nurturing. And then this music teacher came in and he shouted. This music teacher did and used to shout at the kids and my son couldn't cope with it. He [00:11:00] absolutely could not cope in that lesson and it wasn't that he didn't like music and it wasn't that he didn't like the teacher.

He couldn't deal with being shouted at and that's because. I had never raised my voice. I say never. I'd probably, twice in, in the whole of like, there were moments, of course there were, but the main style of parenting that I had was to not change the tone, in my voice, or at least not shout.

And actually, that was detrimental. And what I would say, Julie, is then when we hit the teenage years, that went all out the window anyway, because there was no level of control at some points in that. But what I did do after that was actually change so that I had a cross voice.

The importance is that I was still in control of it.

Julie: Yes.

Philippa: in his teenage years when I wasn't, and that's a whole other thing, but for 90 percent of the time, [00:12:00] I was in control. So I would raise my voice, I would put more of a, right, that is enough now! But I was in control of that. I was never threatening in it, but it helped him to know when it was over. And when the repair had really taken place.

Julie: And, you know, it's making me think about that saying that I had earlier, you were trying so hard to create a calm, smooth sea all the time, even when sort of underneath the sea, there was a lot bubbling away,

And then suddenly he met a storm in the music teacher at school and it, and well, I don't know what your son's experience of it was, but it was, you said he couldn't cope with it, whether it was too frightening.

It was just too bewildering. He also then hadn't ever experienced the calm That comes after a storm, [00:13:00] which for me always feels far calmer than we started before the storm, that calm that comes after a really, really windy, stormy, sort of violent wind day. calm the next day so, so different to the calm before the storm. So yeah, trying to keep a smooth sea doesn't allow us that deep, deep connection that comes a repair has happened. 

Philippa: On it now, I can really see that you don't know that somebody's made a repair. if you don't understand the rupture. And other people could feel that there's a disconnect in this relationship because, you're asking me to do something I don't want to do.

So there's a disconnect and maybe cognitively you [00:14:00] know that Mum's saying something and she doesn't like what I'm doing. But your body, which is so important, especially when you're growing, can't quite feel the disconnect that your head knows because the, like you say, the calmness is still there.

Whereas at least if you're raising your voice or, your tone is changing, your body is also getting that message, isn't it? It's like, Oh, okay, this isn't okay. This is so. And this is not frightening. What is really important is this is not about frightening a child, but it is about raising that level of, okay, yeah, there's something that is, not okay here.

It's not okay for me and it's not okay for the other person. And then, when that is over, your body and your brain return back to a place of, okay, okay, yeah, it's fine, we survived that, and we survived it together

body is back to where it was, and [00:15:00] mum's tone's back to where it was, and mum's saying the things that she says when everything's okay.

And I feel, in my body and in my head back together and we're now sitting watching Simpsons together and snuggled up so it's not just about the knowing, is it? I guess what I was relying on was the words, that

Julie: um,

Philippa: was relying on him being able to understand the words I was saying, but actually what he needed was a whole feeling of, there's a disconnect here between mom and I. Because that happens in peers, doesn't it? There's sometimes the disconnect is non verbal. I remember being at school and having really dirty looks off people, or like they shoulder banging you, and there's no words said there, but you absolutely know that there's a disconnect between you and another person.

And I wasn't teaching him that, maybe, or as well as I could have been, you know what I mean? Hopefully he did have those things, [00:16:00] in that moment, it probably wasn't. And when he went to the music teacher, there was a feeling as well as a knowing.

Julie: yes.

Philippa: And he wasn't used to that feeling that because I tried for him never to be upset in that way.

I'm not saying he never was, of course he wasn't. Of course I shouted at him, but very rarely. And it was when I was not in control, I suppose when I was frustrated, which is not a good way to be.

Julie: So thinking about what you asked us to circle back to, so thinking about a repair doesn't always need to include a sorry and doesn't always need to include even referring to the rupture. Because their bodies weren't ready for it. Their bodies were still in fighting mode, their bodies were still full of cortisol, adrenaline, [00:17:00] and their sorry came out as a grunt, as a, almost as a spit, as another attack to the other child.

So it was not a repair. at all their bodies weren't ready for it. But what we want to think about is do we recognize a gesture of repair even when it's not directly related to the rupture. So an example might be a child who's had a big blow out with their teacher in class. Maybe they've been sent out of the room because they've kicked somebody or they've lost it and they felt the rupture.

Maybe they've even been excluded and they've been sent home. It's a big thing

[00:18:00] Silence.

And can the teacher recognize that as a gesture of repair, even though the child might not want to talk about what happened yesterday, not be able to manage the shame that's connected with that blowout the day before, might not even remember what happened. in the details of that event the day before. But as you said, within their body, they felt a disconnect with somebody that they respect and want to be in relationship to. And so how can the adult space for the child to offer a gesture of repair, even when it's not directly related? So [00:19:00] thinking about often my experience of being in a school, if there had been a big blowout the day before, I would almost be insisting that the child sit down with me and talk about what happened. But I realize now that A six year old, a seven year old, a nine year old just might not have the capacity to do that and it won't hold much meaning for them. But actually if they've me a card to say, I like your lessons miss, then I can see that as the repair and actually I can feel that in my body even as I say it. And you have a story I think about your son as well. I think in those those more volatile teenage years. Tell us a bit about that.

Philippa: And I, yeah,

Julie: can't see Philippa's face, but there was a face there that said her eyes went [00:20:00] up her eyebrows went up as if to say, Gosh, I remember those days. Yes.

Philippa: yeah, I'm sure if my child listens to this, they'll be like, Oh, really, mom, you're still using all these stories about me. Stop. Yeah. So I suppose what I think is. It's that often for children, for young people, they, like you say, want to be in a relationship. But actually, going back over what they did wrong just puts them right back into that moment.

And we talked last time about shame and guilt. And if we ask for the sorry or let's just reflect on this. then often the shame can start to come up and then you'll just get back into that defense of yeah well you did and the conflict starts all over again. So it's not about not addressing some of the things, but [00:21:00] sometimes it's about doing it much later on I think like for teenagers, they often can repair in a way That is indirect really.

So, by giving you a piece of information, because as a parent of a teenager, you don't get any information, because it's all about the peers and you don't know anything. So, to come downstairs and say, Oh, mom, in maths today, that's a repair. Yeah, it might have nothing to do with the argument that you had about them not going out, or the shoes that they're not wearing to school, or any of those sorts of things.

is, arguing that you're all left feeling yucky with. And then, in the evening, they just come downstairs and say, Mum, I'm in maths today. And that's their repair, that's their connection, that's their then giving you something. And that says, I still want to be in this relationship with you. I don't want to talk [00:22:00] about the stuff that happened this morning because I feel really rubbish about it.

And my brain can't cope with it. Because a teenage brain is all changing and maybe that's a whole other episode that we need to talk about. But they can't deal with all that emotional stuff that's going on. And it often takes teenagers and young people a long time to process what's actually happened because again their brain is rebooting and changing so they can't think and process as quickly as we can as adults.

So whilst the little ones don't maybe have the experience or the brain capacity to, to do all that big reflecting. The teenagers do, but it takes them a lot, lot longer. And we need to give them that space to do that connection and to do that thinking and to do that processing. And sometimes it might be that they ask you to do something, mum, can you just take me or mum, can I just have, and that feels, I think as a parent, like what?[00:23:00] 

You've just slammed upstairs an hour ago, told me you're not eating this. Blinking tea that I've cooked for you and blah blah blah and now, and now you're asking me money for going, and that can feel like a real big disconnect as a parent. If we stop and think about it, for children to ask for our help, whatever that help is, is a connection and an acknowledgement that they need you.

And that in itself can be a repair, and that doesn't mean that you have to let all, everything go because now they're telling you about what happened in maths or asking you, you know, for a fiver so they can do charity at school or whatever it is. But It means that we can accept the repair and move on in the relationship.

So once you've repaired the relationship, I think we've talked before, haven't we, about the three R's of Bruce Perry, [00:24:00] regulate, relate, reason. So the relate I think is the bit where you accept their information, their connection and we say, okay, we're back now on the same page, we're back connected, we're back in a space that says to you, your relationship with me is okay, and I'm still going to meet all your needs.

And then maybe the next day you can say, I was thinking, yeah, on Friday when we had that big. Blow out, I was feeling really sad about that. I'm not sure how you were feeling. I wonder if there's a way we could do that differently. So you can go back and address it, have to be within the repair.

Those are, for me, two different things. There's the regulate, let us get, let us both regulate. There's the relate, let's have this repair, let's be in relationship with one another, let's be in connection with one another. And then there's the reason. if you need to address it. You don't always need to [00:25:00] address it because of the little things you've just made the repair.

And then it's the same whether they're three or 23, I think. Do you know what I mean? It's that, it's that we can have this conversation when we're both or we're all back safely in our relationship. 

Julie: And thinking then that that three stage steps of Bruce Perry and others that regulate then relate then reason, and I'm wondering if some of those steps be done on our own, and some of those steps need to be done with the other. So I'm thinking about the regulate part. might need to happen on our own, even if for two minutes the parent Needs to go in the kitchen and do some silent screaming into a tea towel., and the child goes to another [00:26:00] space and buries their head in a cushion or hides behind the settee and that just gives everybody a bit of breathing space that regulate might sometimes happen separately. And then when we, as the adult are more calmer in our state, more regulated, then we can offer ourselves as a sort of regulating cushion for the other, even just around for the child, even if they're still screaming, still kicking, still throwing, as long as everything is safe, then, that's their way of regulating.

So that can happen together or separately. The relate the repair part in my mind, as I'm imagining, this would need to happen together

Philippa: It has to be accept. Yeah. It has to be accept. It doesn't it. So I think that you

Julie: receiving in[00:27:00] 

Philippa: Yeah, so you can text, can't you? If you've got a teenager and they send you a meme

Julie: Yeah,

Philippa: a funny little thing, that is a, you don't have to be in the same space, but that's a repair as far as I can say.

Julie: it's something that happens in communication, 

Philippa: Yeah, so,

Julie: is by text, through sharing food together through. mom about your maths lesson that day. The repair happens, within the relationship. It's something that you need to do

Okay. So very much, and we'll see you next time. Thanks. Okay. Okay. Okay. We'll [00:28:00] be back. all for joining us today. We hope to see you again soon.

But I'm also wondering if the reasoning might happen separately sometimes as well, where, if it's a parent child, the parent goes away and does their own reasoning about that, perhaps with their friends or with, if there are two parents, another parent, a neighbor, somebody that's got similar age children, with similar needs as your child, and just reasoning it out with somebody else, doing a bit of reading, listening to something.

And the child might also do a bit of their own reasoning. Watching their friends do these things, [00:29:00] fathoming it out for themselves. So I suppose that's where my brain has gone, that the regulate can happen separately or together or next to the relate needs to happen in some way as a to and fro, there needs to be a connection. And then the reason could happen separately or together or a mix.

Philippa: And I think our modelling of that and how we respond helps that process for the child when we get to the top. So if we think about a baby, I think I might have talked about this last time. So you've got an eight month old who's sitting in a high chair. With a pile of toys and they drop them on the floor and then we pick them up and then they drop them on the floor And we pick them up and this is a really fun game for a few minutes and then as a parent you think I'm not playing this game anymore So we take the toys off them and then there's a moment of rupture in that relationship Isn't there?

We've [00:30:00] now spoiled this really nice moment that this little eight month old is having. So, there's a rupture in that relationship. What are you doing?

Julie: yeah,

Philippa: don't like that. Yeah. So, I, that's not, that's not a happy state for me to be in.

Julie: going

Philippa: We can leave that child, which is the rupture, and they stay with the rupture, and that, creates this level of shame inside them because the only way that they can understand why you've done that is because there's something wrong with them.

That is the only way you don't have the capacity to reason or think anything more so it's because you don't love them, you don't like them, and obviously these are not cognitive thoughts but their body is saying it's because there's something wrong with me. However, when we do the repair And we feed them then, or we, we take them out the high chair and we go into the lounge with them and we sit and play in the lounge with them, so we end [00:31:00] the game, there's a moment of rupture, and then we reconnect by being the adult and feeding them, playing with them.

We reconnect, we reconnect and we make that repair. Now the reasoning part, I guess, in the widest sense of the word is either I am bad and unlovable because nobody repairs or, Oh, my parents still love me. My granny still cares about me, my auntie, whatever it is. And you slowly that builds up into that what I do is not okay, but who I am is amazing.

And that's what we want, don't we? Is that repair starts to separate the child, the baby from their action, so that as we become teenagers, young adults, adults, we can start to think, Oh, okay, I just upset Julie there because I said something mean. I didn't mean to say that mean, [00:32:00] but it came out my mouth and it was a bit mean and I'm really, really sorry about that.

But I don't go into, Oh my gosh, I'm the worst person in the world. I'm a renders. I know that I need to repair our relationship by saying, Julie, I'm really sorry about that. I didn't mean it in that way. And I take responsibility for what I did, but I don't internalize. I am a bad person.

Does that make sense? So I think when you are little and a toddler and a baby always needs to be in relation with somebody else. As you start to get older, you hopefully have a foundation. So your teenager and their brains are changing, so it's more emotional and we have to give them time their initial response is.

You're doing this because you hate me. You're the worst parent in the world. You just want to ruin my fun, all that sort of stuff. So that's their reasoning in that moment. But as you give them the space, as long as they've got all these other foundations [00:33:00] in place, they can maybe begin to think, okay, I don't like it, but.

Maybe they do have a point or I don't agree with it, but I could see that they're trying to keep me safe or they can go into that reasoning themselves, like you say, so they might not like it, but because you've put all these other foundations in, they can get to the point of saying, yeah, I can see she stopped me going to that party because.

She cares about me and doesn't want me to save, she's wrong because I'd be safe. Do you know what I mean? They're always going to have that or often have that, that bit, but they can reason it through. Does that make sense? So I think we help with rupture and repair. We help to build these foundations because we're scaffolding our children on the rough sea.

We're the lifeboat, aren't we? We're the sails that are saying, okay, we're going to have the sails up, we're going to have the sails down, and now you can do some of this for [00:34:00] yourself.

Julie: So the importance of helping each other our friends in our other relationships at work to have that real essence of I'm okay, I'm acceptable, I am loved, I am cared about and I sometimes do things that other people don't like or that are wrong or are unpleasant for others or harmful to me, the whole of me. is not wrong. The whole of me is not unpleasant. The whole of me is not mean. And that doesn't happen overnight. As you said, that happens right from baby time, toddlerhood, through childhood, through adolescence, into adulthood, and still into old age. As we meet new people, as we build new relationships, sense of, [00:35:00] I am lovable. am wanted and appreciated and enjoyed by this other person. And there are things that go awry in that relationship, it doesn't crumble all of me. And that doesn't happen overnight. I think, as you said, that takes thousands and thousands and thousands of small repairs and small acceptances of gestures of repair from the child and from the adult. And I'm just wondering in the last few minutes where play fits with all of this. We've sort of hinted at playfulness throughout this, where might play be used as as the gesture of repair

Philippa: think play is a really, really important part, you know, certainly I'll just give you an example in our house with teenagers and again with teenagers play because their brain is changing and I really think [00:36:00] we need to do a whole episode on this, you have to be careful. that play isn't misunderstood, and taken out of context or not in the right moment.

But we had in our house a box of, pom pom snowballs. I think I bought them from B& M for, well actually a friend bought them for me from B& M for, for a few quid. And sometimes if we did a bit of a, a moment or whatever, and it was okay. And I knew. My child wasn't in the middle of watching something or, playing on his Xbox or whatever it was.

I would just open the door and lob a load of snowballs in at him and then he'd throw them back and then we'd just have like three minutes of a snowball fight around the house. And then it was all over and that just it gave a bit of energy for a moment, but playful energy.

And then it Drop them down and we could go back because there's sometimes there's that moment isn't there of walking on [00:37:00] eggshells?

Julie: Yes.

Philippa: And it's finding a way of how do you get off those eggshells and for in my house? It was about play being energized of putting the energy of a fun in the house.

So It was a little rolling him up in a blanket like a sausage roll and then rolling him out really fast like a yo yo so he'd fly across the lounge. So there was lots of energy in my house. For others it might be that you do some crafts together or do some baking together or for yours, Julie, I wonder if music was part of how you did those.

Julie: Yeah, I think more and more I realize in my family of origin, but also my family, extended family now, singing a song seems to do that repair. And I'm thinking of maybe sort of walking down the street with a nephew or a friend's child. And we've had a bit of a, Oh, we've had to leave that shop too early, or [00:38:00] they didn't have what they wanted to eat at the restaurant, or we're going home because they've got school the next day or whatever.

There's a kind of grumpiness or growling going on both of us we might catch each other's hand along the path and start bumping into each other as we walk down the path. And then there is a particular family song that we have that I started singing with a niece who's now in her 40s. and still sing with the next lot coming along. It's one of the sort of family songs. I don't even know where I got it from. and we start singing that song and it involves a bit of word play and it involves a bit of pushing each other across the pavement and dragging each other. It's quite physical. And I see that. in part as, a way of getting back into connection and moving towards the repair. [00:39:00] And in our family, food does some of that repair, you know, the classic, do you want a cup of tea? Or in my family, it'd be more, do you want a hot chocolate? I happen to have the gift of a beautiful hot chocolate making machine in my house and I've never known anybody, adult or child, to say, oh no. So I say, do you want hot chocolate? kind of says, okay, I can linger with you for a few minutes. And there's something playful about hot chocolate more so than a cup of tea somehow. So whether playfulness of food, playfulness of a song, playfulness of a snowball fight, I think every family, and even within every family, every relationship has its particular nuances of playful repair.

Philippa: And it can just be, sorry, I was just going to say, it can [00:40:00] just be watching a movie on Netflix and watching something that's funny and, and having a laugh, it just changes the energy in the house, from this tension to say actually, we're all back together or like you say, on a walk or, you know, if you've told them off because they're in the park and they've run off and nearly fell in the lake where you're feeding the ducks and you've got a bit cross and then, like you say, marching back or pushing them on the swing and singing a song, it's the changing of the energy.

I think that's really important.

Julie: Yeah, because then everybody gets the sense of the physical change that's come about. The thing that your son didn't get when your face and your voice didn't change, and he didn't know when the anger was over. Whereas if you can have that, as you've described, very yucky feeling inside when there's been a disconnect, there's a rupture, need to feel the repair. [00:41:00] You need to feel it in your heart, in your stomach, in your legs. It's such a physical feeling when there's been a rupture. that's way before any reasoning or apology can happen. And I think that's a good place to finish.

Philippa: Absolutely. Yeah, that was really good chat there, Julie. Thank you very much. So, thank you for listening to this episode of Pondering Plate and Therapy. Please subscribe to our channels, like us on our social media, and thank you for listening.

Julie: Bye.