Episode 11 Play and Fostering and Interview with Venny

Philippa's guest for this episode is Venny, who shares her experience as a foster carer and how important play is when fostering. She also has stepchildren, birth children, and a huge amount of, grandchildren, at least two football teams worth of grandchildren, along with, her husband, Brian, and they've been foster carers for 13 years. She shares how she has noticed the huge role play has in fostering, especially when caring for children who've maybe experienced trauma or adversity. Sometimes they can get some muddles and can be quite fizzy and have quite a difficult time expressing their feelings or thoughts and play can really help them to come through some of that and remain connected and together even if they can't work out the muddles.

But play can keep them as a family that connected, and keep them moving forward. 

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Transcript

Play and Fostering an interview with Venny

[00:00:00] 

Philippa: Welcome to this episode with me, Philippa, and today I have a guest, Venny, who, is going to talk to us about being a foster carer and how play is for her when she is fostering, and she also has children herself.

She has stepchildren, birth children, and a huge amount of, grandchildren, I think at least two football teams worth of grandchildren, along with, her husband, Brian, and they've been foster carers for 13 years. What she has noticed is that play is a massive part of fostering, especially because many of the children come with tricky backgrounds who've maybe experienced trauma.

or adversity and sometimes they can get some muddles and can be quite fizzy and have [00:01:00] quite a difficult time expressing their feelings or thoughts and play can really help them to come through some of that and remain connected and together even if they can't work out the muddles.

But play can keep that connection, and keep them moving forward. And also, I'm guessing, Venny, giving you and, Brian a bit of light relief sometimes with all these kids and all this stuff going on. 

Venny: Yeah, 

Philippa: So how was play for you? How important was play for you when you were growing up?

Venny: I think it was massively different to now where you can see the kids are all on Xbox's screens, keeping in touch with each other. Back then, play was physically going to see somebody and being with them. So playing out was really important to me with my friends. Parents were out a lot.

They worked all the time. And back then I think a lot of parents did. So it was all about [00:02:00] friendships. I think playing out in the streets, coming in when it got dark and, more of imagination, I think, than the kids have got nowadays. Cause I think you had to find your own things to do. Whereas kids now I've noticed the difference is if you take them away from their X Boxes, it's, they don't know what to do.

They've lost that imagination because they haven't got that same buildup that we had as a guest. 

Philippa: Yeah, and Julie and I talked about in a previous episode that you had to build and make things rather than buy them, so you had to build dens or, you'd find a saucepan or a tea towel or something like that to become a superhero whereas nowadays you can buy a lot more of those things, can't you?

There's pros and cons in that, in that your saucepans don't go missing all the time. But I suppose, like you say, part of that did help with imagination, and building something out of

nothing.

 [00:03:00] Yeah, I think definitely. And I think that's something that I've carried on. over into my life now. It's not going out and buying things. It's, we know that you can make things. We've got that imagination already to create things out of nothing. And the kids love that. And it's new to them. We used to play cards. I remember with my parents and the siblings, and we've carried that one on as well.

So that the kids actually love that getting together, playing. And it's a bit different, you can get all sorts of card games now. I'm just talking about your standard deck and playing Blackjack and, Chase the Ace and all those, which we still do now, and the kids love it. But then you've got Uno and there's all loads different stuff, isn't there?

But it does go back to 

then. I imagine though, with the amount of children and grandchildren you've got, you need several packets of cards. If you're all together, Vennie. 

Venny: Yeah, definitely. We've changed, the dining room doesn't exist anymore. That's a [00:04:00] massive games room now.

And I think that's really helped grandchildren and looked after children get together and be so much more sociable, take it or leave it, they're not being forced to play, but they can see it's all set out there. And it's been a really positive thing for them. 

Philippa: And how do you negotiate that?

When you've got so many children and when I'm talking about children, some of your children are, quite older adults now really, compared to the little ones. You've got quite a range. How do you negotiate gameplay and the rules around that? Because I bet that's quite tricky.

Venny: It can be and we're used to it and kids can get a little bit overwhelmed. So it's just having those little breaks if they need it. And as for grown up children, they still want to come and do games night and it might not have been something we did at the time when they were younger and it's quite a new thing.

It's only a few years old for us, [00:05:00] but we've seen how much good it's done. The grandchildren invite the cell phone to come to games night or we'll watch quiz shows and. And we've got little chocolate coins when we answer a question, right? And it's just a lot of fun really, but they can join in or they don't have to.

And that's the difference, but it's, they're so, inquisitive wondering what's going to happen. So it's, it's all about explaining it. And I think because the children have a long term, they know us well, but we have our children on respite as well, that they don't know what's going on. We've had children that don't know what play is.

So it's unknown. It's scary. So sometimes if they refuse to play, I'll just sit and start myself and get some Play-Doh out or do some coloring in and they're, you can see 'em staring and wondering, what the heck is she doing? Crazy woman, but they're join. Yeah, because they [00:06:00] don't wanna miss out and they wanna know what's about, and it's not forcing anybody to do anything they don't wanna do or don't understand.

Philippa: Julie and I have talked about this as well, is that play isn't always fun, is it? Sometimes play can be pretty scary if you haven't experienced it.

Or I think the other thing as well is, is if you own something and maybe you've lived in a household where things got broken or sold or your siblings took them that actually it can be really hard to play because you don't want to let go of the thing that you've now gotten owned so you don't want to play with it you just want to hide it away so nobody else is gonna have it and that's gonna be quite tricky especially if you've got lots of children around Some who can play and really love playing, and others who find it really scary or want to protect what they own.

What's that like for you? 

Venny: [00:07:00] Yeah, that's definitely a big issue, or it has been. So we never force them to play their own things, we try and get our things. So we buy new games, and we have a big selection of anybody can use anything. But their things stay in their room, because that's, they do have trouble sharing, of course, and that's totally understandable.

So it's about playing different things, and I get stock of things that anybody can have or use. And if they want to take them to the room and keep them, that's absolutely fine. But I think that over time, they become more trusting, and they're happy to share. Or that, the boys have done amazingly before Christmas of sorting out.

What they really don't like and what they do like games and giving them away to other people. And I think that's massive, especially for a looked after child to let go of anything. So it's never forced. It's got to be their choice and their control. And they did [00:08:00] really well. So I've replaced it with lots of other games.

And, yeah, it's worked really well. It's not always gonna, so there's lots of different things we can do and there's cooking isn't there, and all different types of games. You 

Philippa: do lots of baking though don't you, lovely cakes, so that, it really is a form of play isn't it, that crafty kind of play and maybe it's less intense and you get a reward at the end.

Venny: Yeah, I think the struggle is it's the patience isn't it, it's like we've got to. bake the cakes and then they've got to wait for them to be baked and then wait for them to cool down. Then you can see little muddles rising with some younger children. So I tend to try and already pre bake them or even just, it doesn't matter, get the pre baked biscuits and just let them decorate it because they've got this little window.

They're gonna concentrate or sit there and want to do this. And I think that they lose patience really quickly with [00:09:00] that. But they've managed better, I think, with the board games. Except for Monopoly, because that just goes on forever, doesn't it? 

Philippa: Yeah, yeah, it does. And how do you, introduce, children coming into your home to live, whether it's on, short term breaks or whether it's to live as a family for however long they're there, to children that are already established in your house?

Because again, those things around rules and sharing and familiarity, how does that manage with play? How do you do that? 

Venny: It can be difficult at first. We do work around kindness. We say kindness a lot. Nobody's in trouble for not sharing. It's just about thinking about others and They do depends which child we've got, obviously, or a new one coming in that just wants to play with everything, things that are really precious to the boys, for [00:10:00] example, I'll hide out of the way, because I know it will really upset if anything gets broken.

And some things it doesn't matter if it gets broken, it gets thrown around, it doesn't matter. Nobody's in trouble, for having a big wobble and throwing things around. And they can see that. And it's just building up that trust really. 

Philippa: Yeah. And do you use playfulness when they've got, when children are having models or a bit fizzy, do you use play, to help with that?

I think that, yeah, I think we call it distraction and it really does work well with them because they get into such a state. They don't know how to get out of it. They sometimes won't accept help getting out of these muddles. They don't know how to regulate the self. And we try and do it, but sometimes just distraction, and I'm sitting there messing with something, a little stress ball or whatever.

And the [00:11:00] curiosity sort of flips their brain somehow and they're like, what are you doing? What have you got? It's fear of missing out. It's all that sort of stuff. And it does help regulate, well, that and a giant fluffy blanket, obviously. 

Philippa: Yeah. And I guess that's the same, if you've got a little three, four, five year old, one of your little grand grandchildren, I guess sometimes they, feelings get really big, don't they?

And really hard for them to manage. Yeah. And sometimes they need. some emotional scaffolding, and they maybe don't want you to hold them or hug them, so a blanket's a really nice way of them feeling that. But that play, like you say, just playing with a little ball or looking at a cartoon book or, something that they're like, oh, what's she doing there? You can start to just calm that brain down, can't it? 

Venny: Yeah, it works really well. I had a child that was having a huge muddle and nothing worked, everything we tried, it just didn't work. So I got this massive fluffy rug [00:12:00] and I put it on the floor next to a And, I think at this time she was screaming, she was really dysregulated and I just started rolling around on it, like as if I was a toddler and I must have looked stupid if anybody could have seen me.

But I just started rolling around and just stroking the rug and feeling, and it didn't take very long at all before the curiosities, what is she doing? And she just got down and started stroking this rug with me. And then she allowed me to wrap it around her and make her feel safe. So that play ended up in more therapy, which really did work and help calm her down and make her feel safe.

Philippa: That's lovely that you can do that because We feel under stress at those moments in time, don't we? And sometimes as parents, grandparents, foster carers, it takes a lot of strength not to shout or not to get cross because the frustration when a child's got a muddle, [00:13:00] whether it's a toddler or a teenager that's stomping up the room or a child who's got a big feeling because you're coming from school.

And you can be calm and think, okay, we'll just work through this. We'll do it. And then when it goes on for a bit, Our own brain starts to feel under stress, doesn't it? 

Venny: Yeah. 

Philippa: So it takes quite a bit to think, okay, I'm going to do that, rather than getting into that parent mode of, you will do this, you will calm down, because they can't, can they?

No. So how do you manage not to get into that, telling off of children rather than being alongside them and using playfulness? 

Venny: I think, obviously the training they had as a foster care has helped us a lot, the understanding, the empathy. Towards what the kids have gone through.

I think that we've all in our life got frustrated and shouted a little bit and, whether in regret it, but, and it's about own that. If you have [00:14:00] got a bit frustrated, apologize for that, own that and show up, you're just human, but we don't tend to here. We are calmer. We are firm and fair because they do need boundaries, but they know they're safe and that's the difference.

But luckily there's the two of us doing it full time. So if a model goes on for a very long time and it is really, really tiring and it is frustrating, even though we know why they're doing it and we've tried everything, we just take it in turns and just have that little breather. We managed to do that, or we just walk out the room, but it's knowing the child as well.

Sometimes a child will need you right there doing that playfulness. But another child that you know really well, they do not want you there. You've got to walk a little bit away so they can see they're safe. But give them that little breathing space and I think that's the difference. 

Philippa: And what about children that need quite physical inputs?

[00:15:00] How do you do that? You know, children who maybe need to move a bit more or, need quite a lot of sensory stuff going on for them. How do you use playfulness with that or play or? 

Venny: Yeah, We have a little boy who absolutely loves football. He wants to go every day after school and Brian's really good at that.

We delegate and it's like taking him to the park or just on the field and kick around and he loves it. And, and he loves the doing it with him. Not, he doesn't just want to do it on his own. He might've been in a place where he didn't have anybody to play football with for whatever reason. And he loves that, and that helps him get it out, and he might be a little bit wired if he can't have that, he gets frustrated.

And it's about explaining we can't do it every minute of every day, but it's about not saying no, it's about saying not just yet. We will do that tomorrow. Planning ahead, explaining to the children really helps, rather than just saying no, [00:16:00] which leaves them, obviously would leave anybody frustrated really.

Philippa: And do you help them to access clubs or stuff like that? 

Venny: Yeah, we always, we're always trying to be proactive with that. So if it's to do with football, one of our children, absolutely, but he will not, and he knows his mind, he will not join any other club, no matter how hard we try. And that's absolutely fine.

So it's football club, it's football training, after school club, everything to do with football. We've got another boy that did those things, but now he's a teenager. Teenagers don't tend to want to do much really, other than what I used to do when I was a teenager is hang around with my mates, that's a different type of play.

But then there's joining in and trying to get him to join in the teenager trying to get them to join in with the games, and it doesn't always want to do that but then. The other night he come downstairs, because obviously they're nocturnal, aren't they? [00:17:00] About half past eleven at night saying, are we playing cards then?

We're like, no, not now, no, going to bed now. So it's, he's still willing and able, to do that. And he does like it, but that's his choice often he chooses not to. But then he will still join in other times. 

Philippa: You've got teenage grandchildren. How do they play? How do you play with teenagers different than your little ones?

Venny: So again, all kids that age especially want to be on their Xbox but they're happy to come round here and join in games times. We try and get, our daughter's got a brilliant game called Outsmarted, which links to the TV and the phones. So each player gets to answer the question, it just pops up on the phone, so it joins the technology with the boringness of a board game for a teenager really, but you can even play it across different houses with the one game which is brilliant and includes other people.[00:18:00] 

Philippa: So you can be in different houses and say, 

wow, that's cool, 

cool thing, isn't it? 

Venny: So we have one of the children here. He thought he'd try it out last week and went to his room. So we're sitting in the games room on our own, me and Brian, and he's in the bedroom. But you can hear him echoing. He thought it was hilarious that he could answer from his room.

So he's probably also already, he's looking at the TV or watching Netflix or whatever at the same time. 

Philippa: Yeah, yeah. So, so it's finding those ways to do that connection that kind of fits where they are in that moment. Some teens will really want to be with you, won't they, and want to be doing the baking and helping out and all those sorts of things.

Yeah. Other teens want to have that distance, but as a parent or a foster carer or a grandparent, you still want that parental presence, don't you? You still want to be there in their lives, but it's finding how can I be there in their lives and [00:19:00] still allow them that independence or that separation that naturally is what teenagers go through.

So that sounds like a really great way of doing that you can still be connected with them and those sorts of things. 

Venny: Yeah. 

Philippa: The other thing I wondered about, I know we've talked about, is lockdown and how, lockdown has had a massive impact on people in so many ways, from little people, Not having those first bits at school for the teenagers at the time, who are now in their twenties, who, just as they were going into independence, that was all taken away from them.

And then the ones that were just coming into the teenage years, that independence that they should have started to create at that time, when you're 11, 12, that's naturally, you start to look out for peers rather than parents, was taken away from them.

How did you [00:20:00] find lockdown? 

Venny: So I tried to be. As prepared as I could be, because then I could see everybody else panicking once it began and it did hit our, well everybody's area didn't it, our country. So, I did worry about homeschooling would be a massive issue for me because Although we are happy to try and we are like, a bit older, so I know school do things differently.

It wouldn't work. They're under the table. They're over the table, moving, throwing the table. It's not working at all. So we just completely come away from that. It was just making muddles too big. So we introduced a lot of like life skills and through play. And that did really help because obviously it was a really stressful time.

They couldn't see their friends. They couldn't see family. Well, anything really. So I managed to get, a hot tub and we called it the [00:21:00] TheraPool. So we had that, they absolutely loved it. I had snorkel gearing and they were doing that and messing about in that. So that was a really good way of, through play, really calming them down and having lots of fun.

I bought loads of stuff. I bought the wax and we all made wax candles. We did loads of science experiments with food, without food. Building like motor, you can get these kits, building motor engines. It's knowing the children, I think, and what they would be building. And building things out of wood and even the lollipop sticks and building little bridges and little tiny furniture, it was just, it was really good.

It was really good for them. Obviously didn't completely cure everything, but it was massively helpful. Without that play, I don't know if we would have managed at [00:22:00] all. 

Philippa: Yeah, yeah. I enjoyed lockdown. I still worked and still went out and my child was 16, 17.

He was just in that age. I feel like I had him a little bit longer because we did more things together. But what I also acknowledge is that I have a garden and I live in an area where we had a dog, so we could go out and walk and, we could spend time together doing things.

And I guess financially I, could afford to do those things. And it sounds like you and Brian were at home and, you've got an outdoor space where you can put a hot tub. So that not having outside pressures, I think for. Some children can really help with those muddles, can't they, because they are then can be completely safe within the environment they're in.

They know nobody else is coming in. They know they don't have to go to school and worry about school and [00:23:00] peers or any of those sorts of things. So it's almost like a double edged sword, isn't it, is that they should be. Going and doing these things with the peers, but actually that play with peers, that connection with peers, that play in school and, the pressure of school can create so many difficulties that actually having that bit where actually, I know I'm not going to have that.

I'm just going to wake up every day and I'm going to just be in this really safe bubble. I'm going to eat this great food and have these, have this play. in some ways, takes away this, their need to survive in, in high stressful situations, and can help to reduce the muddles and the fizziness that go along with that.

Is that what you found? 

Venny: Yeah, I love the word fizziness. I wouldn't have called it that, though. Definitely. And where one of the boys was so happy not to have to go to school, the other one wanted [00:24:00] to because he missed his friends so much, so you can't win in every situation. But I mean, we did give him, access to a mobile phone so he could speak to his friends.

And that's, the best we could do at that time. That was complete lockdown. But, yeah, we did, a lot of outdoor space, like you say, we were lucky enough, we managed to get, a projector, so we were watching movies in the garden, on the wall, and it was just different things, which is weird, but you might not want to watch a movie in the living room, but it was just thinking outside the box and doing weird and wonderful things, really.

Philippa: Have you been able to carry on some of the things that you did in lockdown? Have you been able to carry them on? And then include your extended family in that, your grandchildren, your children.

Venny: Yeah. So. We had, a little bar building in the garden and we moved it across and during lockdown, I turned it into a giant sweet shop. So it's the size of a shed, but it's now a sweet shop. So we did all that. So we do role [00:25:00] play in there. And so the younger ones, they go in there and they just pretend to make food in there.

And the older ones try and sell us our own food we've already bought. But they all love doing all that. And we play lots of games. Some really big fun barbecues where all different ages of family and friends come around and we've got giant playing cards. We'll play your cards, right?

Well, actually it's supposed to be play your cards, right? Isn't it? We call it play your cards wrong because we have to be different, but they love it, and I come up with these really weird little prizes and wrap them up like little stress balls and things. And I always make sure everybody gets a little prize one way or another

Philippa: okay. So, how do you manage, because it sounds like you do lots of play and lots of fun with lots of, different range of kids, different age of kids. How do you manage with, children and young people who really struggle to [00:26:00] lose or not be the best or that those children that internalize that Failure means that they are bad rather than failure means, I didn't win this time, but I might win next time and it's okay because I know I'm going to win next time.

But sometimes children haven't had experiences that have taught them that adults will make things okay for them, that will scaffold their emotions for them. So everything is about them and that they are bad and they are unlovable and they are awful. They really struggle, with anything where there's, even if it's not a losing game, but they feel that they are losing, they can really struggle with that.

How do you manage with that, Benny? 

Venny: Yeah, that can be a big problem. And I do recall when we played cards with my parents and my siblings. when I was young, [00:27:00] it would be money. It'd be pennies or 10 P's or, little bits of money in that. I couldn't possibly do that. Now the idea of them not winning the money, there would be massive meltdowns, it would not work.

We've just got these little plastic chips for you. So it doesn't matter. You're not walking away with anything. The end of the day and who's got the most chips. And we always make sure we leave. We end the game on use as many as you want and then we play silly things like let's just throw them around or build big pyramids out of them and just changing the subject really, I guess a bit of distraction, but they know that.

Yeah, the idea of fear of missing out isn't it on what somebody else has got. We just try and make it fair as we can, but we also do a lot of explaining before and after and it has really lowered that it's loaded meltdowns. 

Philippa: Do you find ways to help them just [00:28:00] experience just a little bit of losing?

So maybe that, they play, you're playing a game and, they win overall, but maybe there's four rounds and they all lose one round, but win three. 

Venny: Yeah. Yeah, just a little bit at a time. It's baby steps, isn't it? So they've got to get used to real life. They've got to get used to, to missing out on certain things or somebody getting more than them.

And it's just those conversations that we have, about you might think they've got more than you but that's okay because another day you'll have a different amount. And just, it does take some time, with a lot of, therapy speaking, nurturing and explaining.

And also just being a bit silly as well, into it. So it's not so serious, but it seemed to have managed a little bit better. 

Philippa: And if they have a big muddle and they they stomp on it, I'm not playing it anymore and not, connect for all over the place or the, Pat [00:29:00] goes chucking all over the yard.

What, what happens? How do you manage that, Venny? 

Venny: That's okay. And then now things get broken and tempers, they come out and that's okay. And we're okay with it. And we're just very nurturing with it and nobody's to blame. And we show a lot of understanding about explaining to them about, that must've been really hard.

I understand you were frustrated and somebody else won and you didn't. And then we speak again at another time when they also. calmer and listening more about what happened and how we can help that. 

Philippa: Yeah. So it sounds like it's more than explaining. It's a tuning to their emotional state that you are noticing what they're feeling, that you're saying to them, Oh, Fanny, I can see that.

That was really hard for you then when Brian won and I'm really [00:30:00] sorry that you're feeling, you so upset about it, but maybe next time you might win. And it's that connecting with them. in the moment where they are rather than telling them they should be something else. 

Venny: Yes.

Philippa: So you're saying I can see that this was hard for you rather than say don't be so silly. This is just a game. 

Venny: Yeah. And if I did say that. The models are just get bigger every time there's absolutely no way that's going to help in any way, so we know that it definitely does work is the nurture and the explanations and the empathy, of why they are behaving in such a way and it's not.

I don't like it being called naughty or anything. It's about understanding that they didn't have the games before, maybe, or, and they're loving it and having such a lovely time. They don't want it to end or they're scared about what somebody else will win and what they don't win, so it's, The understanding.

Philippa: And that [00:31:00] really just made me think, how do you end it when they are having fun? Because lots and lots and lots of families, one of the biggest things that when I see families that they come with is transitions are so hard. That ending. one thing and start in another. Whether that's they're on their tablet and they have to come to dinner, or that you're playing with them and you need to end it because it's bedtime, or that they're playing out with their friends or hanging out with their friends as a teenager and they need to come in.

That transition of ending this playful, fun, nice thing that they're having. to go and do something else that maybe they don't want to do as much like eat their dinner or go to bed or get ready for school. How do you manage that, Vennie? Because that's really hard. 

Venny: Yeah, it definitely can be hard for them.

So we always give them notice. We couldn't possibly just turn around and say, right, that's it. Now it's bedtime and just shut that down because that won't work very [00:32:00] well for anybody really. So it's about, look, it's getting a bit late now. It's nearly bedtime. So let's just have. Another two games here to round a card or we'll just play this game and then so it's thinking ahead, but letting them know.

So they know they've got on a little countdown. Let's have a little drink now while we're winding down or explaining for a child playing out. There's a certain time we have to be in, but that's because I'm keeping you safe and I know you're having fun and that's okay. But we are very flexible in the sense that we let, obviously on a weekend, not a school day, but we let friends sleep over and let them have fun in different ways, and they know that.

They know we're listening. They know we are looking out for their needs and we're not being selfish or mean, they know we're fair with it. And I think that really helps as well. So it's that 

Philippa: structure of, okay, so it's going to be bedtime in a minute. We're going to have two more rounds of [00:33:00] cards or you've got 10 more minutes on your tablet or whatever it is.

So you're structuring it and you're giving them those countdowns. Yeah. 10 minutes, five minutes, two minutes. So they've got, and it sounds also like Vinny, that you're noticing what they're feeling. So in some ways, it's helping them know what they're feeling too. So, I know you might be a bit disappointed that we're ending now.

We'll play again, on Saturday. It's okay that you're feeling disappointed. It's okay that you're feeling cropped. that I am telling you, you've got to come off this great game that you're playing with now. So you're noticing and holding their feelings for them. Yeah. And saying, it's okay that you've got these feelings.

However, you still have to come off and go to bed. So you're not saying, yeah, you can have these feelings. You can be fizzy and I'm going to let you carry on. You're there's a structure and a boundary to it, but using, it sounds like lots of empathy and lots of. A, a thing called pace, playfulness, [00:34:00] acceptance, curiosity and empathy.

A guy called Dan Hughes coin that and, and it's got a whole program around that. But it sounds like you and Brian use that quite a bit. 

Venny: Yeah, we do. It helps. It is, a lot of the understanding, isn't it, like you said, and they can't just manage that, but also letting them know, you might be a child that thinks this is it, we're never doing this again.

 They don't understand a child that doesn't know us. that comes on Respite maybe. So it's about, look, okay, we are, finishing it tonight, but, if that's a Friday night, we could say, but we can play again tomorrow night or tomorrow day, depending on a school day, obviously, and working around and let them know ahead of time, we will be doing this again, or you are going out to play with your friends and this is when you're doing it and reminding of them in that moment that this isn't the end and this will be happening again.

Which really does help. Wow. 

Philippa: And so we're coming to the end of our thing now. Do you enjoy playing Vanny? Do you enjoy doing [00:35:00] the play? 

Venny: I do. It can when you first start certain things that People advise you why don't you try this? And you might think, I'm not sure about this, or you try and adapt it in your own way, or find something that suits you better, but play is definitely really useful.

And even kids that don't think they want to, or say they don't want to. Always end up joining in, in one way or another, so it's definitely right, but it's finding what suits you and I played chess, not for a long time since I was a child, but then I started playing it again, and I never thought for a minute that I'd want to be involved in that, because that's really.

It can be really difficult. Brian's give up. He doesn't want to play chess or learn how to. He's like, I can't do this. He's give up on that. But one at a time, the boys are like, I'm interested in this. I want to play. And I just thought they're not going to get it. It is really quite complex.

But they do and they love it [00:36:00] and they carried on and then they're asking me, have you got time? Can you play chess? I'm always like, yeah. And sometimes you might think, okay, I'm a bit busy right now. I wasn't planning to do that, but you know what? This child doesn't play as often as you would like them to.

I will stop everything right now and I will play this game of chess for them. Because not always does he want to join in so now it's worked really well and 

Philippa: and he loves it. So that's great. I think that's a really great place to end. Sounds like what you're saying is just keep in there.

Keep that parental presence in there. Keep just chipping away slowly, slowly, slowly, and eventually there's some kind of engagement in play. Yeah. But not forcing we are going to do this today. 

Venny: No, because if you force, it's not going to happen. 

Philippa: Oh, well, thank you so much, Benny, for being our guest on this podcast.

I've really enjoyed chatting to you [00:37:00] and, good luck with all of your fostering. Thank you. 

Nice 

Philippa: chatting to 

you too.