When play becomes frightening

Julie and Philippa ponder when the play becomes frightening. They consider the role of rough-and-tumble play, how it can be part of childhood, and when it becomes frightening for children and young people. 
With technology ever present in our daily lives we ponder video games and how they can be frightening. Ending the episode pondering word play and the attunement and development that is required to help make this type of play fun rather than hurtful.

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Transcript

When play becomes frightening

Philippa: [00:00:00] Welcome to this week's episode with me, Philippa.

Julie: And me, Julie, and this is another episode in our series about regressive play. This episode is about frightening play, and Philippa, you start us off with this.

Philippa: Yeah, so we've thought quite a bit about when children play younger than their years and our last episode we talked a lot about the expectations that we place on children's development and where they should be and this week we wanted to, think about When, play can be frightening for children, and this is quite a vast topic as well.

And we are aware that sometimes play can involve inappropriate touch and sexualized behavior. We're not going to talk about that in this episode because [00:01:00] we feel that that is probably an episode in itself and one that we need to be really thoughtful and mindful about. So we want to acknowledge that that is part of Frightening Play but it's not something we're going to cover in this episode.

We are going to look at other ideas around Frightening Play.

Julie: For your dangerous play or play that, that doesn't feel good. So that could be quite a continuum from just it feels a bit yucky. It feels unpleasant. It feels forced in some way. Right down the continuum to absolutely terrifying. you know, my life is going to end in this play. And so we're looking at that whole spectrum of when play doesn't feel fun and play is actually moving towards fear [00:02:00] that is grossly unpleasant and the player, or certainly one of the players, wants that play to stop and it doesn't stop. So that's the realm we're going to be thinking about today. And one of the first ones we've thought about is what's often called rough and tumble play. That desire often of a child to want to play very, very physically, either with a peer, a sibling, a parent, somebody else, where the play is rough. It doesn't generally have a story. It's the physicality of the interaction that's the important thing. So there isn't a I'm this, you're that. There isn't a role play, but it's, we're playing in this is rough physical way, which can tip into feeling dangerous, [00:03:00] into feeling quite frightening. 

Philippa: all children and young people and teenagers do that kind of play, don't they? Oh, in a, again, in a continuum, some children. like a mildly bit of arm wrestling, a bit of thumb wars, bit of piggyback riding, stuff like that, right through to pillar fighting, wrestling with your peers down a hill.

That would be what we talk, what you're talking about there is, what you would expect within the realms of childhood and young adulthood. 

Julie: For many people, not for all people. And for some children and young people, more than others. Some don't want to go anywhere near that. Some, that's their main way of playing and interacting. with one another. That just, yeah, bumping along the street together, pushing into one another, holding hands but kind of quite tightly or in a playful way and swinging arms one [00:04:00] way or the other. But usually that sort of play feels safe enough. Because both parties have agreed, or if it's more than two parties, all of those, but let's just say there's two involved in this. It's not spoken about often and agreed, but there is an agreement that we're starting this, we're ending this. There are boundaries, it's contained. And often there's some way of indicating to the other that I've hit my limit. Now we need to stop. So I might.

Philippa: I was going to say, there can be injury in that, can't there? I remember, I'm just, it's just making me remember, we used to do Chinese burns. I don't know why it was called that, but you used to like twist one another's arms, like the skin on one another's arms really harshly and burn Like, literally, damage the skin on [00:05:00] your arms.

 And that was a form of play, and I remember doing that at school. And so it's not just about, I suppose what I'm saying is, is there can be injuries that occur within that agreed format of play.

Julie: Yeah. I mean, I haven't thought about Chinese burns for a long time. And as you say, I don't know why it was called Chinese burns and I wouldn't use that term now, but yeah, that twisting of the skin on your wrist for a sort of temporary Ouchness that then disappeared very quickly, and we seem to agree it with our peers.

You'd offer your wrist to somebody else for them to do that.

Philippa: And slapsies, did you do that? Where you put your hand and you slap the other person's hand. And it was whoever could stay there the longest. And sometimes your hands would be really red and bruised. And there's a point where you withdrew and like, that's [00:06:00] enough for me.

And, and that was a, that was it. You, you were kind of in control of that. 

Julie: Yes. Well,

I suppose as you're saying this, I don't know. Everybody will agree. But that's okay. There will be lots of families and lots of schools and lots of professionals will say, that's not okay to harm another person. So,

Philippa: I suppose what I'm saying is, is as children, we engage in that play. Whether it's right or wrong, we engaged in that play and there was an injury to it. Do you know what I mean? You know, certainly I did. I played those games. I was in control of that and there was an injury to it. But it wasn't frightening for me.

 I guess sport, I suppose I'm just putting into context that we, can have some quite aggressive play where there's injuries. So, you know, if you think about rugby, or [00:07:00] hockey, you can get some injuries. But I suppose, I'm thinking it is there's that agreement through the of the participate, you know, the people participating that they are okay with that they're involved in that they they have some control of that.

And that is all that kind of rough and tumble physical play.

Julie: Yeah, I mean, I think what we're saying about the Chinese burns or the slapsies is the intention is to hurt.

That is purpose. Whereas playing hockey, playing rugby, playing rough and tumble play, the intention is not to hurt. And I think I would sit more on the side of having. Rough play or a rough sport where there is another intention to, you know, to score a goal to enjoy physically touching another person, but [00:08:00] without the agreement to injury.

So I think you and I might

have different different views on that. I mean, I'm I'm thinking about that how, how the parties involved, whether it's a sport or a playground game or something on the sofa at home, there are agreed rules, whether they're spoken or not. Sometimes the rules and the boundaries are created over time. In a game of hockey, of course, they're written down, they're agreed, and somebody is umpiring that, refereeing that. On a game of rough and tumble at home, that might be developed over time with between siblings or between parent and child, carer and child. This is how far each of us will go, and at this point we will stop. So there's the no, no, no, no, no, no, and then there's the final no that [00:09:00] says I need you to stop now. And I'm fascinated by how well that seems to work for so many families, for so many sibling groups. where they do engage with what can look like a sort of Tom and Jerry cartoon of rough and tumble. Very, very physical play, and yet there is a point where it stops. Occasionally a parent needs to intervene and do the stopping, but often I wonder if parents, or the adult involved as the onlooker, intervenes. earlier than those who are involved in it want to finish. I think those who are in it often know where their limits are, but from the outside, it can look worse than it feels inside. And I, I'm remembering situations with family members when they were younger, certainly wouldn't be able to do that with them [00:10:00] now. Wanted to play a game, something like prisons, and they'd say, right, I'm, I'm in the prison and you've got to put me in prison for a hundred years. I go, oh gosh, that's a long time.

You must have done something really bad. Yeah, I have. And they would lie on the sofa, and I would have to put, cushions on top of them and then sit on top of them. I mean, I'm not of a great weight, but I will always be a greater weight than a seven year old or an eight year old that wanted me to sit on them and then counts the hundred years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. So there was a limit. That we had both agreed within the play, I'm going to sit on you for a hundred years. Now I was partly leaning on my hands, I knew I wasn't giving my full weight to them. And they were prone, they were supported on the sofa. That young person, that child [00:11:00] really wanted the pressure, the deep, deep sensory pressure. of somebody sitting on them and pushing right into them. I remember playing that game over and over and over again. And then next time it'd be, I'm in prison for 200 years, 300 years, then a thousand years. And then by the end of that play, my memory is that that child was would be in a much, much better physical state. Their body had been pushed and massaged really through that play. And then it was almost like they knew that young person knew, I need my body to be contained, to be interacted with, to be squashed, to be pushed against in order for me to feel more in my body. So that's another type of sort of rough and tumble play but that is within a [00:12:00] story.

Philippa: And we do that, don't we, in TheraPlay and we do things like pizza on your back or where we put them in, put the pizza in the oven and put the pillars on the top and lean why the pizza is cooked or even like the weather map that we draw on the back and there's quite a lot of pressured touch can be on there, can't there?

So we, we, we. We use that in therapy as well, don't we?

Julie: And then thinking about, you know, this episode is about frightening play. At what point does it? tip over into being, well, tips from being exciting and stimulating to being frightening. So my example of the child on the sofa, if I had bounced on the child, if I had gone beyond the hundred years, if I had added More cushions than they were expecting if I had sat on [00:13:00] their face, if I had then taken the play beyond what we had agreed within the story. that could tip from being exciting and stimulating to being frightening. And that's something we've been thinking a lot about is how the players need to be attuned to one another. So being in the play, but keeping an eye, keeping a heart, keeping a feeling towards the other person to know. When we're overwhelming a child, or when we are actually being frightening, rather than being on that edge of stimulation and excitement that the child wants to experience, but actually, we can quickly tip over, into being frightening, which is what we're not wanting to do with a child in play, to actually become a frightening [00:14:00] person. And you and I certainly work with a number of children who have lived with misattuning parents, uh carers who have for their own reasons and with their own challenges, not being able to tune into their child. And may well believe that they're playing with their child, but actually the experience has been very, very frightening for the child. I mean, terrifying. Absolutely. This adult has become more than a play partner, has become a sort of monster. in my experience. And so when we play with that child, who's perhaps by that stage, living with a different parent, living with a different carer, and we move towards some of this rough and tumble, deep touch play, it can very, very quickly send a child into fear, and we become the fearful [00:15:00] adult. again, that their memory associates that, that touch or that pressure, that rough and tumble play with being terrified. And so we're constantly making a judgment as to how far I can go. And I, I don't know if you do this as well. I go very, very slowly into that with children who I know, or I suspect have experienced very frightening play with their, with their early carers and, and.

Beautiful. 

an attuned adult, an attuned player is a real skill. And it, it happens over time, gradually as we get to know each child. And as each parent gets to know each of their children, a parent may have two or three children and each child needs something different. Oh, I can throw that one [00:16:00] in the air and catch them, then sit on them, then roll them down the hill And it remains great fun for both of us. This child, Oh, I can hold their hand and skip in a circle with them, but I can't lift them up and throw them around because that tips them into fear. And so knowing even within a family, different siblings, different children need different types of play. Philippa, you were going to talk a little bit about, your experience of video games and, and how playing video games might tip a child into fear with playing that is beyond that excitement and stimulation.

Philippa: I think for many parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, technology is both a gift. We wouldn't be doing this if we didn't have the technology. It's also a minefield, I think. And, quite rightly, [00:17:00] games and, movies are given age ratings, aren't they? From you right through to to 18.

And, children and young people always want the next thing, don't they? They always want to be older than they are. They always want to, to experience more because they can see that within their, their peer group. And, they don't understand, because they're children, and the implications of, seeing something, witnessing something, being part of something that their brain and their body isn't quite ready for.

And I think, video games often, and movies can be part of that, can't they? So, there's, there's things like Call of Duty and, Destiny and, and lots of different games. That are, rated 18, but they are very popular. And if you watch YouTube, there's loads of players, loads of [00:18:00] content, all about these, games

and I think for parents, it's, a constant battle for some children who are into gaming about actually,

 Stick with, the age rated games, whether that's roadblocks or Minecraft or whatever it is. But if you've got older siblings or peers who are at school who are playing these games.

I think for parents it can be a battle about how, how do we help them to be socially accepted and within this peer group that are playing video games and part of that and being able to have those conversations, but also protect them. From the violent and explicit content that are in some of these, these games, there are games that, look at prostitution and killing people and stealing things and, and a lot of these can be online as well where you play with other players.

And I guess lots of those other [00:19:00] players are going to be 18 plus because that's what the game is. And, and that in itself can be. very frightening and overstimulating in a way that I often wonder if children, can comprehend, and the impact that that can have. And I think it's a minefield.

It's an absolute minefield, but they are rated

Silence.

eight years old. How can you conceptualize and process the information that you're receiving and, when you're playing what they call first shooter games, where you're actually controlling the gun and you're blowing somebody's head off and you see the blood split out and the person die, that is hard to process, I think, when you're a child.

It's, it's hard to process as [00:20:00] an adult, I think, I would think, but you have more capacity to do that, don't you? Um, and I think it's a minefield for parents. It's, it's a really difficult thing to be able to, to walk that line about, where is this content? There are other children watching it. There are older siblings, they can access the internet, they can access YouTube, how do you boundary that?

But the impact of that can be, quite significant.

Julie: So it, I mean, this is an area I don't know so much about. I know you, you are a gamer. You play much more than I would play on video games. It's not within my experience. Are you saying it's something? Well, I mean, my understanding is it's actually to do with how visuals and how sound comes into the brain and as an eight year old brain is built in such a way that receiving those [00:21:00] images and those sounds, that violence coming in, it stays around in the brain in a very different way to an older brain. child or a young adult, an 18, 19, 20 year old, who's, who's brain is, is more mature. So there's something about the way the the information, the way the story, the violence comes into the brain and, and the, the developmental stage of that brain. That's my understanding. But it's, it's also making me think about, within say my playroom, I don't have swords. I have chosen not to have swords, partly because they can only be one thing. That's not entirely true. But you know, if I've got a shape that looks like a sword, it gets used as a sword. And I try as much as possible to have equipment in the room that can have [00:22:00] many, many, many uses. So I have Those swimming noodles, you know, those big long sort of tubes of foam. They're about six foot long. Usually I cut them in half and then it becomes two potential objects to be lots of things. And indeed they have become lots of things, but there are four of them in the room and they are often used as swords. It's very hard to hurt somebody with them, but you can really get a lot of energy into them. And I have lots of younger children, 7, 8, 9 year olds, middle age, middle childhood children, who play very, very violent games. with those swords, and the story is about shooting, is about attacking, about killing, about chopping off my head. The stories in the doll's house are often very violent. Now, what I [00:23:00] don't understand is why seeing that on a screen, and this is for me to go away and learn more about, why seeing violence on a screen is perceived, I think, as, As more dangerous than a child creating that story from within themselves in their play. If I look out in a school playground, there will be Children running around shooting each other. and killing each other and pretending to steal each other and take them off to dens and put them in prison. And I think that sort of play has gone on for hundreds of years, even before shooting was a possibility. It would have been killing, harpooning, spearing. Where does that come from and why is it so different? Why

are we so frightened as adults about video games compared to the [00:24:00] games that In my experience, or my observation, is that children create anyway, whether they've ever seen a video game or not.

Philippa: I think the difference is, is that you're playing in connection and in relation to somebody else, aren't you? When you're on a video game, you're looking at a screen, and there is, there's a constant feed of it, and there's a constant, stream of aggression and violence that's going on, and you get, instant rewards, so it's a real feel good thing.

Whereas when you're playing those games, and, There isn't anything wrong with children playing, Those games and playing, playing them out when they're in relation to their peers because there's a negotiation to it There's a connection with it There's a you can see if you've hurt somebody or not hurt somebody blowing somebody's head off When you're eight years old with a rifle seeing it explode and then you just carry on walking on [00:25:00] I suppose for me is what information are we getting from that?

When you're hitting your friend with a noodle or even with a sword or you're shooting them with a gun, there's a level of, of empathetic development that you're creating. And if you're playing that with another adult, they're ensuring that you're okay within that play, that you're okay, that the other person's okay.

So you're role playing these things out, which is really important to do. But there's a context to it, there's a relationship to it, there's a safety within it. When you're sitting on a screen and you're machine gunning or you're getting women in the street to go and sell them to somebody else in a car, there's an impersonalization to that.

 I suppose for my view, when you haven't got a clear understanding yet because you're young of society, of [00:26:00] relationships, of connections, of empathy, of, of all those things that, that childhood gives us. To be thrown into that adult world, you haven't got the foundation to know that this isn't how life is.

Whereas when you're playing it in a playground, it's relational, it's connectional, it's know that the other person is okay and that you're not going to do anything that actually really hurts them are you you might pretend to shoot them but you know they're gonna get up and you're gonna then go and have dinner with them or you're gonna play marbles with them or you're gonna do maths with them or do you know i mean it's a it's you're building a societal representation through connection in that play when you're playing a video game you're getting a whole load of very intense information that is a high reward in a way that you haven't got in my, in my [00:27:00] own personal view, you haven't got the emotional capacity or the cognitive ability to make sense of.

And that's the difference, I think.

Julie: yeah, no, that's really, really helpful. That's something certainly I want to go away and think more about. And actually let's add that to our list of episodes to think about play. Play and video games and other interactions through the internet where there might

be relationship, you may be playing with somebody, you know, and I'm wondering if somehow that might make a difference. But let's leave that for for another episode. We wanted to have a think as well about as well as physical play. So we've thought today about the, the rough and tumble play, the sitting on, the massage, the playing with bodies, in safe but moving towards frightening experiences and, and the boundaries of [00:28:00] that. And, and Phillip has just helped us to think there about playing and video games and the difference between the video game and. Playing sword, fighting in a playground and, and is there a difference there? But we also wanted to think about word play where there there is no touch, where there is no story. There's a sense of being playful with words. And certainly I come from a family where. We play a lot with words. I don't know how that ever came about, but as a group of siblings and others in our extended family, words, are a big part of how we banter and play together. And I think Philippa, that's part of your experience as well in your family, that word play is part of your enjoyment with those close to you. But we're also thinking [00:29:00] about when Wordplay with children becomes ridicule, becomes belittling, becomes hurtful, becomes the child experiencing being laughed at, being put down. And certainly my understanding of younger children is it's around six, seven, eight that children begin to get the sense of wordplay, a word meaning One thing in one context and meaning something else in another context.

And that's when they begin to get into joke books and telling jokes and riddles and things like that. Trying a joke with a three year old or a four year old that's based on words isn't going to work. Generally, I mean, we're talking about typical and expectation and so on, but generally around seven and eight, beginning of Key [00:30:00] Stage 2, that sense of being able to play with words. And that's a wonderful part of humanity, is that we can play with one another through words. But how quickly that can become hurtful, how quickly that can become ridicule, putting down, belittling. Often from the adult towards the child, but I experience it sometimes from child to adult.

And that's something we've not talked about today. And maybe that's another episode is when there is violence, whether that's physical or verbal violence from the child towards the parent. And certainly I know you and I work with many families where, The adults are living in fear of their child. What their child is going to say to them, and about them, and what their child is going to do [00:31:00] physically to them, or threatens to do towards them. And certainly both of us work with several families, and have done, who are living with the fear of being hurt by their child in play as well as in everyday life. I suppose we just wanted to bring in that concept of word play and how again, as the adults or as the other player, We need to be constantly attuned to the other. I might think something is really, really funny and it causes me to laugh. And it might be to do with the child, but the child might experience that as ridicule and shame and hurt. And how attuned am I to my words, my gestures, my playful word bantering with a child actually might be pulling us apart rather than sticking us together. I'm trying to think of an example, one [00:32:00] isn't coming to mind right now, but perhaps listeners will have their own experiences of that. Where wordplay can be joyful, connecting, wonderful, but can also just tip into the hurtful, the frightening, the shaming. And so we, we just wanted to bring that in as another topic. Yeah, go ahead.

Philippa: I was going to say, I think also that sometimes, Children can experience being, put down and denigrated and that, can't they? By adults that maybe sometimes do it on purpose because for whatever reason there's something going on for them. And other times it might be that the parent or the carer or whoever it is feels like they are equipping the child or the teenager for later life [00:33:00] because life's not fair and life's hard so you know it can just things like well why can't you do that jigsaw you know a two year old could do it and you're seven or oh my gosh you've only got a And he got C, Joey next door got an A, and that kind of quite

negative, interaction towards a child who's playing or rather than delighting, what we want is for children to be delighted in what they've done, that delight in their picture, that delight in the lego that they've built.

The joyfulness of, of wanting to engage in play with them. Yes, I'd love to eat your pretend biscuit or I'd love to, jump in these puddles with you rather than don't be so silly, you're old enough to know better than that

and that actually can be quite shaming for children. And, it can lead to significant self doubt and low self esteem and. And anxiety [00:34:00] really about what is somebody going to say? And, you know, well, I'm not going to show anyone my picture because they're not going to like what I've drawn. And therefore, when they go to school, they don't ask for help because it feels like they will be told off or shamed for not knowing something.

When actually childhood is all about, well, whole life is about not knowing. What child does is about learning from, from adults. And, and children can experience that quite. Harsh, abusive parenting in some ways and it may not be the intention always. Sometimes it is, sometimes, it is, but I guess majority of time it's, it's, not done with intent, but because parents, carers, adults don't know another way, they, they behave in that way towards children.

And actually, it's quite [00:35:00] detrimental.

Julie: And it's, making me think about board games. I mean, the classic, say, Snakes and Ladders, or Uno or Snap, you know, some very common, board games. And that, certainly in my experience, that sort of perennial question of do you let the child win? Do you let the child win? Have an extra go. Do you let the child have the satisfaction of winning, even if they haven't stuck to all the rules?

And there will be lots of different camps on that. There's the, well, no, let's play exactly to the agreed rules. And if the child wins, they win. And if they lose, they lose. And part of playing the board game is Learning how to deal with disappointment and having another go. So that would be one camp. And another camp would be, well, let's let them in slowly. Let's build in success, let them win every [00:36:00] game. And within a family, there could be such different takes on

that. Certainly, I have a memory of playing with a young person who's in my life, playing the game of Ludo. Do you know that game where

you've got a home, you're a color, you make your way around the board, and then you have to get all four counters home. But this young person, I was playing with his older sister. who was probably about six or seven at the time. So she had the sense of, yes, I can roll the dice. I can move my counters along. She could do that. But this little one, her brother, was only probably about three while we were playing. He couldn't roll the dice.

He couldn't read the dots. That was far too complex for him. His way of playing and interacting was to put the little people, the little counters, on his fingers.

Philippa: Mm hmm.

Julie: And he would have, I would play one color, his sister would play another color. He would have the other [00:37:00] two, just on his fingers, the other set of eight counters on his little fingers. And that was his introduction to playing Ludo. And then gradually, as he started playing the game with his sister and I, Sometimes we'd get to a stage, maybe he was five or six, where I've thrown a number that means I could send him back home. I could land on him and send him back home. But we used to have this check in.

I would say to him, Oh, I've thrown a four and oh, one, two, three, four. Oh, I could land on you and send you home. Or I could do one, two, three, four with my other one over there. And then I would ask him, what do you think? And sometimes he'd say, no, I'm not ready. I can't cope. Don't do it. Do it with the other one.

And then other days I remember he would take a deep breath and go, yes, I can [00:38:00] do it. Send me home. I can cope. And it was like he took himself to the edge of frightening. He took himself to the edge of his tolerance. But I was checking in with him and he was checking in with me about actually what he could handle.

Now that young person is, is well into their teenage years. I cannot beat that at ludo and he plays ruthlessly. I mean, it's. It's huge. He's like, I'm sending you home. Oh, okay. I think you're not checking in with me. I'm okay with that. But it's how do we get to the edges of the things that bother us? you know, the shame in losing a game, perhaps, the fear in being hurt, the, difficulty with somebody saying a word that might hurt us.

How do we use play as a way [00:39:00] to get toward some of those difficult edges? Because life has those difficulties in it. Life isn't lovely and fun and joyous and happy all the time. Life is difficult and complex and unpredictable. So how do we use play to get to those difficult edges, what a colleague of mine calls the growth edges.

How do we use play to get us towards those edges safely enough and attuned to and in relationship to somebody else without us tipping over into fear, shame, disappointment, terror, and losing connection. Without tipping over into fear and sometimes we will accidentally, I might be playing peekaboo with the child, you know, peekaboo, where are you? [00:40:00] Philippa is hiding, ready, steady. And then I remember one day I went, Boo! Absolutely terrified this child. It wasn't a huge boo, but it was way, way, way too big for this child.

And in dialogue with her and testing it out, we gradually went back to a tiny boo and then week after week after week, she could tolerate a bigger boo. But I had frightened her to the extent that, she scuttled off under the sofa and Hidge, I had genuinely frightened her. And I thought I was being playful.

So I make mistakes along the way. And found a playful way of pulling that child back out from under the sofa and reconnecting. And it was brave of her to allow me to play that game with her again and again. And she showed me how she needed the boo to be. Not the big boo! She needed the boo. [00:41:00] And gradually we built it up.

Now she can scream boo at me and others and it doesn't frighten her at all. But I make mistakes and I tip a child or the other person interfere and shame sometimes without knowing. And then it's, that's been the rupture. And then how do we create the repair to get back into connection? and have another go.

Maybe not that day, but maybe a week or a month later when we're both ready for it. Okay!

Philippa: That's a great place to end today. So thank you for listening to this episode. Of ponder in play and therapy.