differences V's expectations in play

Julie and Philippa ponder when play doesn't appear to be within the expected typical development. Considering neurodiversity and their experience of working with children and families. Pondering why play might appear to be delayed or is delayed, thinking about how we can be alongside a child in play and how we communicate, especially non-verbally. 
Philippa does have a little rant. 

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Transcript

Differences V's expectations in play

The transcript is an accurate representation however, there maybe small sections missing. 

Philippa: [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me, Philippa.

Julie: me, Julie. And today we're going to continue our mini series on regressive play. And this week's episode is about differences versus expectations. in children's play. So how do we come about this one? we've started thinking this series about the concept of when we witness and play with a child who appears to be playing a non typical age.

So chronological age is eight. child appears to be playing at what Well, this is what we're going to talk about today. What is typical or the expected play of, say, a four year old? And the questions that we, as parents, as [00:01:00] teachers, as therapists, as neighbours, the questions we might ask around, why is this eight year old playing like a four year old? I suppose the overall question is, is it a problem? Is the eight year old playing as a four year old And it feels good, and it brings about connection, and it's soothing, and it's helpful for that child. But what we're also aware of is it the societal expectations, the school's expectations, the GP's expectation, the therapist expectation, that says an eight year old, ought to be playing in this way. So there are lots of theorists who write about stages of play, there's Margaret Parton, she's sort of a, a developmental, a developmental psychologist, and she talks about the stages of play, there are lots and lots of ways of looking at stages of [00:02:00] play. of course, we know as therapists that we often meet a child who's playing in a way that is not seen as typical or not seen as the expected play for that age. So that's where we're going to be exploring today. I suppose the overall question is, there a problem and is it fine? But what that do to the parent? We've, we've had some parents write in and,

Philippa: Okay.

Julie: ask, is my child normal? Is my child typical? And the anxiety that that can cause for a parent when they notice that their child is not playing in the typical or expected, and I'm saying both of those words in inverted commas, in the [00:03:00] typical or expected way the child's age. Does that seem where we're heading, Philippa?

Philippa: Yeah, I think so. We've had quite a bit of discussion about this again because it's a massive topic, haven't we? And thinking about, neurodiversity or things that happen. In utero, like alcohol or drug use that can possibly impact, the development of a child.

And we talked a bit about that in the last episode, but we also know that play and, development can be affected, neurologically, because children are diverse and different. But we also thought about as people, we are really different, aren't we?

We know that we are different in the way that we play and the way that we think and what we need when you are young and developing. [00:04:00] And learning and building all those things. Having milestones and expectations, I guess, in some way, are helpful to think about where we should be.

Because sometimes there are things that we need to know to help children or help young people. I personally wonder sometimes if we have such a narrow band of what is expected, that actually sometimes it can be unhelpful in that it does create more anxiety because we all have different experiences just where you live.

can give you a different experience, whether you're living in a rural setting or in a city setting, whether you're living in a tower block or in a farm [00:05:00] and small holding, whether you're living with brothers and sisters or you're an only child, all those impact the way that we learn, the way that we develop and definitely the way that we play.

 So there's so much, that impacts our developmental stages as we go through. We know that the brain changes at certain times. We know that the body develops in certain ways and we talked a little bit about those in our last episode. But I wonder about How we allow for all these cultural diversities, all these different experiences.

That's not to say that sometimes children, like we've talked about, get stuck or repetitive and do regress. But I think there's just such a lot to that, thought process. And that can create quite a lot of anxiety and worry for parents and children, let you say.

Julie: [00:06:00] So if we go back to that imaginary eight year old who might be expected under the stages of development, especially in a Western society, To be playing with others, to be creating stories, to be using metaphor, having an imagination to think up an idea and then create it out of. some other substance. So where one thing can stand in for another. So typically developing may be that an eight year old is able to do all of those things. And it's partly related to middle childhood we become much more interested in being part of the group, in interacting with In playing in ways that others are playing so that the gang, the group, the, club [00:07:00] has an identity.

So in England, that would be key stage two, or P2 in Scotland. That, age sort of seven to 11, where you're in middle childhood, you suddenly have this outlook on the world, the universe, the bigness of the world, then finding friends who've got things in common and you create a club, a group, an identity. What happens then if you have an eight year old. who doesn't want to do that, doesn't feel that that's for them, doesn't find joy in that, isn't soothed by that. And perhaps the

Silence. Silence. Okay. Silence. Silence.

to play alone, or prefers to play alone, or prefers to play their own things, but alongside somebody [00:08:00] else, which developmentally, the theorists tell us, is more typical of a three, four, five year old early childhood, where we talk about associative play, where you play somebody.

You might be doing the same thing, but we're not interacting with one another. So, for instance, Philippa, you would be building a Lego something or other tower, and I'm sat next to you and I'm building a Lego tower, but there's no sense that we'll do something with those two towers together. That would be more typical of a four, five year old. But of course, an eight year old may still want to play like that. our question that we'll keep coming back to is, is it a problem? And if it's a problem, who is it a problem for? Might not be a problem for the child. They're actually quite enjoying this. This is what soothes them, brings them joy. But it [00:09:00] might be seen as a problem at school or with the parent. And as a therapist, I also might be thinking, Hmm, is this serving this child well? Is, is there something stuck about their play? And I'll come back to that a little bit later. But I'm also thinking about, say a child who has real desire to play with what's sometimes called messy play. I don't like that term because it gives it a kind of connotation, but wants to play with spaghetti, play with Play-Doh, play with. and flour and making gloopy stuff, slime and so on. And the joy or the incentive for the child is simply to get their hands or their feet or their face into that, that gloopy substance. [00:10:00] And that would be more typical of one, two, three, four year olds who want to explore that sensory experience of Where do I end?

Where does the world begin? Um, eight year old playing like that. I, I, I notice if an eight year old wants to play in that way and in the therapy room, I have a big box full of spaghetti flour, oil, water, and they can do whatever they like within that box. I am always wondering what has drawn that, 8, 9, 10 year old into play that is younger, typically younger, and where they don't want to make it into an object. So there's playing with Play Doh to make objects, that would be more typical of an older child, but just playing with Play Doh, squishing it [00:11:00] between your fingers. tasting it, moving it around. I suppose that's continually our question. Is it a problem? Um, I mean, what, what's your experience of, of seeing children at a younger age where you see that it's perhaps not due to trauma, which we talked about last week because of a developmental stage that they're at. It's something more neurological.

Philippa: I wonder, for the work that I do, separating trauma and those early adverse experiences in neurology and more, formal diagnosis in those ways sometimes can be quite tricky, but what I, then this is a generalization thing is that if it's.

A gap that we talked about last time where children have missed [00:12:00] that predictable, consistent parenting, and they weren't given the opportunity. So their body didn't develop in the way they should. They don't have those, connective relationships.

They don't trust those relationships because it wasn't provided for them. in those early years. Once you start to provide them, what you see is movement. So you see children move through those developmental stages. There's still a delay, but you see them moving from that one year old to the three year old to the five year old just because you're filling in the gaps, which is what we talked about last time.

What also you can see is that for some children, there's some of the gaps that are filled in, but some things remain and they remain where they are. And that, I guess, for me, we then begin to think about actually, is there more than there was a [00:13:00] missed opportunity? And I don't say that as a minimization of any of it, but that you can have an and and a both.

or you can just have one. So, things like fetal alcohol syndrome disorder or autism or, neurodiversities, they are who the children are, aren't they? That's just part of their everyday and with fetal alcohol syndrome disorder, you need a lot more repetition.

So it doesn't mean that Children won't move on or they aren't going to develop some of those skills, but they often need a lot, a lot, lot, lot more repetition to get to that point. So, you know, say a typical child needs 40 repetitions to learn something. A child with FASD can need over 100 repetitions.

And sometimes they need to keep going [00:14:00] back and redoing it again as they, move to the next developmental stage.

Mm.

of need to go back and remember where they've come from and then they can move forward. And I guess, you know, with autism and, neurodiversity, children feel safe and, contained and happy in where they are.

And for us, it's about noticing that and knowing actually, this is what this little person or big person needs. in order to play. For me it's then about thinking about how do we support that child or young person to be who they are and not expect them to change. Do you know what I mean?

 If you've got risk behaviours or, behaviours that are harmful to either themselves or other people, then we need to support some change in [00:15:00] that. Actually, if those aren't present. Then I suppose what I think is, is that it's our job to be with that child or teenager or even adult where they are without expecting them to meet these expectations.

And it's just about knowing that actually my kid likes lining up cars in color code and they get upset if we move one of them in the wrong way and so let's just not move them. Or they need to play with two certain cars at a nursery. Well, actually, just give them two certain cars and buy another two for the rest of the group.

Because, it's not a big deal, I don't think. If you think about this is where this child is, this is what this child needs. To be who this child is, we don't [00:16:00] have to change them. To be something else.

Julie: Yeah.

Philippa: We just have to be alongside them and celebrate all that they are and I feel that sometimes we can get stuck in what they should be doing.

And, it gives us a milestone to know that maybe there's something else going on for this young person. So it's not about saying that those milestones aren't important. Of course they are. Because we need to then, that gives us an idea of, Where this young person or child or even toddler is and how do we support by being alongside them?

So they are important. I suppose for me it's about how, how are we present with a child, with a teenager, with an adult, in their play, in their presence. About [00:17:00] where they are rather than where we should be. I feel like I've just said a bit of a rant there, Julie, I'm sorry.

Julie: run and actually I don't know that I agree with some of it because You know, in a sense, the stages of development, the school expectation charts, you know, expected level below expected, above expected, exceeding expected, this is the language certainly in England and Wales we have at the moment in primary schools. Those expected levels, those expected typical stages of play. for, inverted commas, typically developing children. And on the whole, you and I see a lot of non typically developing children. And it's almost, that we, we need multiple scales of development for, for the whole diverse, range of human beings, in [00:18:00] which case almost everybody needs their own stages of development, their own expected developmental stages. so what I'm beginning to think is while I can kind of measure a child against typical development, that's really not of much use to me. I'm interested in, is this child. Meeting their own expected milestones. Are they developing in the way that they are created to develop? And how can I help myself as a professional, but parents, others around the child, recognize that this child has their own expected levels of development that are not part of the official societal expected published norms. [00:19:00] And how can we recognize that? And as you say, how was we as the adults around that child can provide what that child needs, not what We are told that child ought to be doing and I think that

Philippa: Absolutely.

Julie: tussle and kind of into that, though, I would add, you know, certainly as a therapist, I'm having to sort of tussle with myself to say, is this child playing in a, an inverted commas, non typical age range. Because that is their expected stage of development. It's bringing joy, it's bringing soothing, it's bringing some connection. It's where that child is. That is that child's play at that age. But also [00:20:00] I know I meet children who are stuck in a way of playing that is perhaps due to and is perhaps a form of dissociation from difficult things. So an example I often, often give, with parents and with others, a child who played the same story. It was to do with a racetrack and cars, played the same story with the same cars a road mat. You know, those mats that have got like a road laid out and It was the same story week after week after week.

It went on for about eight or nine weeks, the same story. so question when I, you know, consulted others to think about this [00:21:00] child is, is this play serving this child well? Is this child, child enjoy, is there joy in this play? Is there life in it? Is there some shift? Is something developing? My question was, is this child playing a repetitive play because that is their style of play? It was at a time many years ago where I wouldn't have used the term neurodiverse, but I think now I would apply that to this child and my thinking around him. So neurodiversity in this child's play, which was causing him or inviting him play in a repetitive way that could have been. That's how he needs to play. Which case my job is to accept that be alongside him. Or was he playing in this way because he had trauma, a traumatic experience in early [00:22:00] life that in some way with these cars racing around the track was replaying over and over and over again. and not able to find any solution, any resolution, any relief from, and actually the play was making him more and more agitated wasn't helpful for him, which case my role as the therapist would be to kind of him off the track and to see if we could find a resolution to this story that was causing him so much pain.

So those were my two questions. And with the guidance of a supervisor, I took the risk of inviting him to come off the racetrack but I kept in the metaphor of his play. it was a racetrack. And so I checked in with him. He [00:23:00] understood the concept of a pit stop, where the cars can come and have a bit of a rest, get their tires changed, fill up with petrol, and then go back on the track.

And I said, Oh, I wonder if here. That's the pit stop, and it was almost immediately brought his cars into the pit stop. It was like for week, after week, after week, he'd been racing round and round this track and he had no way of stopping. And so my intervention, my invitation of just saying, Oh, I wonder if that's going to be a pit stop. Those cars were there immediately. And his whole body just of collapsed. He exhaled, he looked up it was like, Oh, thank goodness, yeah, somebody's recognized that I got stuck. Somebody's recognized that I was spinning, and there was no way I could stop. And then, and this was the kind of magic moment, and I'm sure you have magic moments in sessions as well, or [00:24:00] when you're with children. He handed me a car, then we had a race together, and that was the first time had played with me. And then over time, there was a whole story created around these cars and other cars. And literally they all slowed down. And it seemed from his carer and from his school that he was that literally he slowed down in everything, which allowed

Hello. Hello.

at a table and eat, allowed him to walk to school and not run off on the way to school. But that was a risk I took. in working out, is this play that is serving him well, this repetitive play, or is this play that is trauma related [00:25:00] and He's stuck in and I made

Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence.

I think that was the right choice, but other times I get that wrong. It's like when to be alongside. when to play with, when to just sit nearby or pay some attention to, and then when a child actually might be stuck or distressed in their play, in which case how can I as an adult move that play on or help them to be in connection and find the next stage for their play. I don't have an answer for all of that. A lot of it is guesswork and just trial and error and seeing what happens.

Philippa: It made me think about [00:26:00] how we communicate and listen and understand, because what you were doing with that child was you were listening to his non verbal play, really, and, you know, making a hypothesis. Is it this or is it this? So we have to interpret it.

And that makes me think about, some neurodiversity. We don't always hear everything that's been said. So sometimes play can feel like a child is misbehaving or not following the rules or being mean. That can often be because they haven't heard everything that's said. So an example would be, that if I say to you, Julie, just pass the ball to Olivia and then Olivia is going to put it in the basket.

So if you don't hear, Pass the ball, you just hear Julie, Olivia, in the basket. [00:27:00] Then you're just going to think, Oh, okay, the basket's behind Olivia and I need to go and put the ball into it. So, you don't follow the instruction of passing the ball to Olivia, you just go and put the ball in the basket on your own.

So for you, you followed the instruction as given for somebody else and maybe for the child. They're thinking, Julie's really selfish. Julie doesn't want to play. Julie's really controlling. Julie just wants to ruin the game. But actually what happened is that you haven't had all the information that the adult or your peer has given you, and that communication in play can be quite difficult.

I think, with neurodiversity, again, with FASD, that, is one of the things, processing, but also with, with things like autism or even A DHD, you know, we don't. [00:28:00] We don't have the same conversation, even though the same words are being said. And I think that in itself can lead to a misunderstanding about children's play.

And the other thing about that is Last time we talked about sensory development. If you've got an underdeveloped sensory system and you're playing tag,

Then you need to hit really hard to know that you've tagged the other person. But the other person's got a typically developing tactile system.

They're going to feel that like a good thump. And again, that can really get us into, to trouble when that's not really the intention or the understanding of the, the child carrying out that play or carrying out that task. And it can seem like it's something else.

Julie: Yeah.

Philippa: So again, I think as you know, as adults, as [00:29:00] safe people and children and even teenagers lives, we need to think about.

What, story or what language are we talking? And I often think when I work with people, it's like we're doing two different dances. Somebody's doing the Foxtrot and somebody else is doing the tango. And unless we're in the same kind of footstep, we're going to be misinterpreting one another, aren't we?

All the way along. And so I think with play, We can think that children are doing one thing, but because there's diversity, it's not the intent of the child, but because we've got these typical boundaries that we put all children in, we measure them from, from a point of view.

that they aren't at and that in itself I think can be really, really difficult for children and it can really affect their self [00:30:00] esteem and self confidence and you know it can have massive impacts on children going through into adulthood Oh, really?

Julie: So how our play or our interactions can be misinterpreted and how each of us make assumptions about somebody else's play without checking in with them that that was what they were doing. We're intending to do so. So often I'll hear a parent saying, Oh, my child's been in trouble at school again, or I was called into school three times last week my child's been controlling manipulative.

He's been called a saboteur in the class. been mean to other children. He's been stealing. And I don't see any of that at home, but somehow at school, that's how they're they're seeing it or he's being so horrible at school, [00:31:00] but then we start to unpick that stealing is about or what that hitting is about.

And as you said it's their sensory system may be very, very differently developed. And so they need a big hit to feel that they've hit, or looks like they've stolen something, but actually they just needed some small connection between home and school. so they've gathered some objects or they've hoarded some objects in a box somewhere. And so can we take the time the professionals, as the parents, as the neighbors, to just pause for two or three seconds to check in that what we think we've seen is what's really going on. Because I think quite often we jump to, well, I certainly jumped to conclusions, in my own assumptions very, very quickly. and that can [00:32:00] absolutely be devastating for the child. Not only are they feeling sort of odd in their bodies in some ways, feeling that they're not typical and everybody keeps telling them this, they haven't got the hang of how to get along with other children. So I think there's a lot to be thought about there.

Philippa: Yeah, and I think for children, for all of us, we only know what it's like to be in our own body. So I think for children, when they are being told you're hitting too hard, they don't know that it's because their sensory system is underdeveloped. What they think is, well, everybody else can do it, why can't I?

Everybody else can sit still at school, why can't I? Everybody else can, can do this, why can't I? Because they don't know that their body is different or maybe their, their processing is just slightly different than the person giving the, the instruction or giving the [00:33:00] question.

And it's not about better or worse. It's just that we're all different, aren't we? And I often think we accept that people have different eyesights and different hearings, and we make lots of allowances for those. We know that some people need glasses, some people need contact lenses, some people need to sit at the front of the class, some people need to sit at the back of the class, some people can't see at all, and they, Have support for that and that's just an accepted norm of society.

Why can't we accept neuro devious that people play differently or think differently or, you know, in, in, in much more of an inclusive way, why do we have to put these sort of treated boundaries around children, particularly about this is what you should be doing and this is how you should be.

Achieving. Why not think about this is what you are achieving and this is how you are doing and [00:34:00] wow that's amazing you've done three sums today or wow you built that great big Lego tower or whatever it is. Why do we have to think about this is what you didn't do rather than think about this is what you did do?

The difference at that point. would make to so many children and young people and teenagers, I think would be significant rather than measuring them against some arbitrary thing that somebody's picked up and said, this is what we all should be doing. And actually we all shouldn't be doing that because life would be pretty boring if we all fit into that narrow band, wouldn't it? We need all this creativity and flexibility and, children to play at a younger age. As long as they're happy

Julie: That's what we're going to lead on to next time is thinking about, [00:35:00] actually, what is the quality of the play? this play serving this child well? Is it bringing, not necessarily joy, but a sort of even keel contentment, even if that contentment is around I'm working out something difficult, so I don't believe that play is always joyful, but is it in some way, progressing, helping. It's something that I can move through to get to a better state, even though I'm not in a good state while I'm doing it. So that's where I see play. It's where, I use play for myself. But we're also going to be thinking about next time about play and danger. When a child has experienced, perhaps, danger in life, and when [00:36:00] any hint of play or connection with another in a playful way bring back those physical, mental, emotional memories a time of danger, and how, as therapists, as adults, as the school teachers, as the helpers, supporters, parents of children, how can we help them find the joyful, soothing, helpful type of play when so quickly play is associated with fear, danger, dissociation. that's where we're going to go next time.

Philippa: Absolutely. So I think this is a great place to, to end this week's podcast. So very much for listening. If you've enjoyed our episode, please hit like or subscribe to our channel. It really helps us. [00:37:00] And we'll see you next time.