Filling in the Gaps with Play

This week Julie and Philippa ponder when children and young people ‘regress’ in play, thinking about how this can ‘fill in early life gaps’. Pondering how important a playful nappy change can be to a baby and toddler. How unpredictable, inconsistent parenting can impact a child or young person and how they have a sense of the rhythm of life and how can play support the development of this. Pondering co-regulation and regulation, and how important regulation is to experience from the outside in first. Bruce Perry’s regulate, relate, Reason is reference by Julie and Philippa. 

Sarah Lloyd’s Building Under developed Sensory Systems work is referenced in relation to how babies develop from in utero. 

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Transcript

Filling in the Gaps with Play- Dec 06, 2024

Philippa: [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode with me, Philippa.

Julie: And me, Julie. this week's episode is about filling in the gaps with play. And Philippa, you came, well, you didn't come up with this idea. Tell us how we've ended up with this as our episode this week.

Philippa: So one of our listeners messaged and asked if we would, do an episode on play and regression. Which is really, really important and we'd thought about this and we thought that That is just a huge topic That probably needs more than one episode So we've thought about how we can break that down and for this episode We're going to do One part of it, but there's lots more to it isn't there Julie?

Julie: So yeah, this concept of regression. So we're thinking about [00:01:00] a child who's playing in ways that are younger than their chronological age. So perhaps an eight year old who's playing more like a toddler or even like a baby and thinking about why that might be. Why is the child drawn to play like that? When we were thinking about the episode, we ended up, yes, as you said, thinking, this is huge because there are so many different reasons. why a child might be playing younger than their age. We call that regression. today we're going to be thinking particularly about children for whom there's been gaps and absences for many different reasons and we'll talk about that in a second. But in the future we're going to look at reasons why believe the regression might be happening. So we came up with four D's and this might make [00:02:00] sense to some listeners or might resonate with their experiences as a parent, as a therapist, social worker, whoever's listening. So today we're thinking about the first D, which is there's been some sort of delay. There's been some absence. There's been some gap. So that's where we're going to focus today. future episodes, we'll think about, is there something about the difference for this child, a neurological difference, developmental difference, that means that they're simply catching up with where they might have been earlier in life. It's just part of their development, but it's, seems to be more delayed than a typically developing child or a neurotypical child. And then we also talked about children for whom play in regression is full of danger, another D. where , perhaps, they had experience as a little one [00:03:00] playing with their caregivers, it felt dangerous or it was mixed with danger. Some of it was lovely. Some of it was dangerous. Some of it felt frightening. So we've got the D for danger. And then we also talked about another D, the delight. Sometimes a child or an adult may choose to play in younger ways because it's a relief. It's a bit of respite. It's a, I can go back to being younger. I can go back to a time that's associated with safety and joy. So that would be the D. So today we're doing delay. Another day will do difference, will also do delight, and at some point will do danger. But let's get back then to the gaps, the delays, the absences. Philippa, you had something to say, I think, about [00:04:00] where these ideas are coming from, where our thinking is coming from.

Philippa: We wanted to acknowledge that today the delay Or the gaps, we're going to be talking about have often come from children who maybe have experienced early life adversity, that may be neglect, it may be abuse. It may be the absence of consistent, predictable parenting for whatever reason, and that's not about making a judgment, but we just know that sometimes children don't experience everything that they need to experience.

In utero, in those first few months and years, develop a foundation for moving forward, and sometimes that might be because , they've had medical needs and maybe been in a neonatal or something like that. So,, haven't been able to be held or [00:05:00] carried in the way that, parents would have wanted to, but because they've had other Pressing needs, probably life threatening needs that I've needed to take priority over the typical parenting that you would do with babies.

What we know is when you don't get the parenting and the consistency and the predictability, that you need in those early, months, weeks of life, it does have an impact. And we know this because experts in the field have researched this, have written about it, have shared their thoughts.

So as we go through, we're going to be talking about our practice and our experience and our understanding of the knowledge that has been shared. by, experts in different fields. 

We're here to say this is [00:06:00] how we've interpreted it and this is our understanding of it and this is our practice of it and therefore we will put links or names or anything that we can in the bio of this episode so that if listeners want to go and explore more or want to understand a little bit more about what we're saying.

They can go and do their own reading, watching on YouTube, whatever it is. Also, people can drop us a comment or a text. If we haven't put something, then we'll happily, forward that on, 

Julie: so we're going to be talking about our clinical experience and our personal experiences. But of course, those experiences and our understanding of them is come from the many authors, theorists, researchers, whose work that we have lent into throughout our professional lives. This isn't something we're making up just for ourselves.

But of course, we're meeting many, many little ones and the big ones who care for them. [00:07:00] And in a sense, seeing what's written in the books and the articles, we're seeing it live. We're seeing it in practice in very nuanced, different ways. Each family we work with is so different. Nobody meets the textbook description of how any of these gaps may look like later in life. But we, draw on other people's experiences really as a scaffold for our thinking. 

 It gives me a lens to look in, when I'm working with a family and trying to fathom out what might be happening and then to work out which way we might take the therapy in which ways we might play, that are going to help the child and not hinder anything or make anything worse for the child. So today thinking particularly about the gaps, the absences, can you say a little bit more about your experience of that in your work? [00:08:00] How common is this? How often do you see this occurring with your families?

Philippa: I suppose the work that I do, I would say a hundred percent of my children, teenagers. have some kind of missed opportunity, in some area and they have some great strengths and some great resilience and have learned other ways to overcome those gaps. And sometimes those are helpful and sometimes they're not.

But it kept them alive maybe in their first family or in dangerous situations where they just needed to survive, strategies, those ways of managing, kept them safe, kept them alive, kept them moving forward. And they may not be needed now in the family that they're in or in the [00:09:00] place that they are in and that this time now, but that's really hard to give up when they kept you alive.

And I think there are, there are three areas. There is your brain development, which,, starts off in in utero, and we start off with our survival brain. We've talked about that in previous episodes. What we want is, to move from regulation of ourselves through our parents.

Because if you're a baby, you don't know that you're stressed or upset or sad. You need a parent or a safe adult to help us with that. That is key. co regulation and it's needed. I, this is how I remember it is from the outside in that we can't regulate ourselves unless we've experienced regulation from a safe big person.

And Bruce Perry talks about regulation relate reason. [00:10:00] And that's what we need is we need that regulation. And then we can relate it to the adult, to whoever's offering it, whoever's around that safe. And then as you grow, you can do the reasoning, the thinking part

but if you don't have that regulation when you're hungry, and when your nappy needs changing, or you're cold or you're hot, and nobody comes and does that for you, then You miss out on, on those abilities and it's as simple as , when I think about changing a nappy.

Yeah, this is how I think about when we build, this consistency and predictability for children. We, they need a nappy being changed. every four, five hours, sometimes every 10 minutes, depending on

Where we're at with them. So they are fussy and they are, wet and uncomfortable.

So they are attuned to, somebody notices that. [00:11:00] They lay them down. And that helps them to know that something is about to start. And as you do it over time, that something about to start, they know is going to be okay because they're now experiencing it. And if your child is a little bit grumpy, a little bit miserable, you might do the, Oh, it's okay.

Don't worry. It'd be long and do the really soothing, nice tones to that. If they're giggling and playful, you might blow raspberries on the bottom of their feet. You might blow a raspberry on their belly. And you attune to where their state is in that moment. And that, that attuning is also helping them to regulate and manage.

And then you do the nappy change and then you pick them up and, Then, it's over . So, you're doing regulation, but you're also helping playfully to teach them about this rhythm of life. That there's a beginning, a middle, and an end to stuff. And that your big people help you do [00:12:00] this beginning, the middle, and end.

And they help you survive playfully. And in an in tuned way, these things that are uncomfortable, so that when you're five and you go to school, you know that your mum or your dad or your granny or whoever your person is is going to be there. You know that the day begins, you know what the middle of the day is, and you know that the day is going to end.

And you can engage in play because you've got your parents in your mind regulating you. And then you run out and they, you know, again, are attuned to the state you are. They are either playful and whooshing you up or connected. Oh my gosh, you've had a really bad day or you play chase with them. But you engage in this play.

back and forth, because you've had this early life regulation through something as simple as having your nappy changed in different playful [00:13:00] states. Makes sense.

Julie: that does. And I'm thinking particularly of say for children who might come for therapy with their parents. So some of the therapy you and I do is with the parent and the child together in the room. And it may be a child who's, six, seven, eight, but has missed out for whatever reason has missed out on that co regulation on that attunement and don't have that sense of predictability about an engagement with somebody else. So even the structure of our sessions becomes so important in, in my practice, it's in my home at the moment, they come to the door, they ring a certain bell I open the door, we all take our shoes off, we come into the room as a little train, we sing a little song and the same at the end of the session, we have a snack, we [00:14:00] have a sort of nurturing time and then we create that train and song again to go back out and put our shoes on and get home. That's the beginning and ends of the therapy sessions, the top and tail, regardless of what happens in the middle of the sessions. So many of the children that I see really struggle even with that routine and that trust that the adult can the train, that the adult can take off their shoes and put on their shoes for them, for the child. and I see a huge amount of, I don't want to call it resistance, that has such a negative tone to it, a sort of sense of pushing against that routine because I think for the child, it feels just really weird. They've not had many, many times when they were very little having regular care, regular attunement. [00:15:00] And as you said, that sense of a beginning, middle and end. So it's made me think about singing with children. Singing is something I do a lot of in my life. I don't remember particularly, but I know I must've been sung to and with as a child. There was always singing music going on in my household and I have somehow soaked that up and it's become a big part of my life. And when I'm singing with children in a therapy session, I'm really struck by how the songs that I have have a start, a middle and an end, but many, many children allow me to start. And then start to really wobble and protest in the middle and really, really don't want me to get to the end. And what I'm learning to do and have done over many years is always get to the end of the song. Always get to the end of the [00:16:00] song to give the child a sense of the end of this song can be survived. They're short, they're nursery rhyme songs. like my body lies over the ocean. It's got four lines to it. My body lies over the ocean. Now the child might protest at that point, but I need to sing that last line to give them a sense of, we finished, everything is okay, we can survive this. And to me there's a real delight when the child. Begins to join in with the song, and it allows them, to survive those four lines because they know it's going to end. They know exactly when it's going to end. It isn't an unending loop. So there's a sense that they can stretch their regulation. entrusting me [00:17:00] that we'll get to the end and then I'll stop. And then you get that magic, magic moment when they say, do it again, do it again. You think, ah, okay. They need it to be repeated and repeated. But I think, you have the story of the nappy change with its beginning, middle, and end and the little bit of playfulness within that. And I am thinking then about how a piece of music, a little song has got a beginning, middle and an end and how that helps the child really sort of hold themselves together. Even when something is uncomfortable, when they're beginning to feel a bit dysregulated, they know the adult with them is going to help them get to the end and it won't be long. 

Philippa: Yeah.

Julie: about that.

Philippa: And I think that makes me think about, you know, when you've got toddlers and little people in your house, you watch [00:18:00] the same blinking episode of what, in my house, it was Thomas the Tank, over and over and over again. And it wasn't Thomas the Tank, like all the episodes that was one episode with Diesel, the engine, that we watched over and over again.

And over and over again. And the same book that you read over and over again. They want the same book or , they want the same thing. And that is part of that development, isn't it? Is that consistency, that predictability. It feels really safe to do that play in, in that way. They might have, different toys, but they want to play with the same toy because it's about mastery as well and about challenge and there's something safe in, in the knowing.

And so if you can know it, you can be in it and you don't need to be thinking, is this okay? How am I going to live? How am I going to [00:19:00] survive? Is something going to happen to me? And You can just relax because actually you know what's going to happen and you

Julie: Okay. Um,

Philippa: that you're playing with, that you're going to get out again and then you're going to do it again.

And, and there's, That sense of, of mastery that you can do it, the consistency provides safety in it. And it just helps children think about, okay, this is an okay thing. I can do this. And then they can start to slowly think, actually, I don't want to watch TV. episode anymore.

I want to watch this because they can take what they've learned from one thing and move it to another. Now, if you don't get that, if you don't have, that space to repeat and [00:20:00] learn, and have that predictability in your life, then life must feel pretty scary. And you must, well, we know what our children tend to do is try and create that for themselves.

So it feels like they are controlling or often you'll hear, it described as manipulating, but actually, I think it's not, it's just what they're trying to do is provide a sense of safety in a world that's been very unpredictable and very scary and therefore the only people that have been able to do that for them is themselves even as a tiny baby or toddler and helping a child even a teenager or a young adult to be able to trust that somebody else can provide that for them that outside in 

Julie: Um, [00:21:00] Uh,

Philippa: not going there, mate, because, you know, I've tried that before, and my big people didn't help me with it.

My big people let me down, and so you're going to have to work really hard. I want you to do it, but I need a little bit of reassurance, a little bit of consistency from you that you are going to do that. And I think, for me, that is a real privilege, that kids come back every week and see me. And they give me a go, even if they are saying, this is really scary, but I'm gonna see if you can do it.

And that's just, melts my heart every single day. And that's just a huge, huge honour, I think.

Julie: They're being brave enough, they're being courageous in saying, I don't really get what this thing is that you're doing, that see other people are calling play or routine or [00:22:00] singing. I don't really get what that is because I didn't have it, but I'm going to risk you in even a little bit. guide me, to hold me, to take me to places I've never been before. it's a real sense, this is where we see the difference between the gap in play development, the gap in relational development, to say a child, a little one who, when they were very small, had experiences, did have experiences of playfulness, but they became harmful. They became scary. They became frightening. And so those children avoid that connection at a later age. And we'll talk about this in another episode, but they do the avoidance and the pushing away. it was very, very scary. What's scary for the child who's experienced the gaps and the absence is, wow, this is just something isn't [00:23:00] familiar to me.

Seems to be really familiar for you and my parent, perhaps in the therapy room or in life or in school. wow, I've, this is like a whole new language. I have no idea what this thing is and it's weird. And so the fear and the resistance and the pushing away, Is because I just don't trust it. Because I've never experienced it before.

I gave up even before I knew it was something I wanted. gave up wanting, needing an adult to come and care for me. So quite often, I know we've talked about this before. We might have a three or four year old child who's moved from their birth family into foster care and now into adoption and they're described in the paperwork as.

very independent, can look after their own needs. language skills are excellent and so on. And always my heart goes [00:24:00] out to them to think,

Philippa: Um, Um, Um,

Julie: phrase when a child's, you know, putting their coat on themselves and it's a really tricky zip and I can do it. I can do it. I do. I can do it myself. And I go, I know you can do it yourself, but isn't it lovely to have daddy do it for you? Isn't it lovely to have somebody help you? And, oh, that's so hard for them because they've not had that experience. of being helped in a safe, kind, predictable way. This is reminding me, Philippa, of, you talk often about Dan Siegel and his image of the hand brain. I think of it as the triune brain, that sense that don't physically have three layers to our brain in such a crude way, but it's become an image that, many parents and professionals have [00:25:00] found helpful in thinking about the steps that our brain developing, that first step being the survival or the reptilian brain, that bottom part it, which is physically near the spine. And it's often that those children are still. all the time functioning out of their survival brain, even though they don't need to be tipping into that brain so often. So their relational, emotional limbic system, the next layer, just hasn't had a chance to develop. The thing I find really comes up more and more is quite often that child has got very good cognitive skills.

They can seem to talk about things and have very good language skills, are doing really well with reading and writing and stuff at school. But somehow their emotional brain [00:26:00] hasn't been wired up in a way that serves them. Well, so it's taking them out of the cognitive, taking them out of the very talky talky brain back down into their body and their emotions, but without going so far back that they flick into the survival brain that

Philippa: Um,

Julie: startles pushes things away. So that,

Philippa: I think.

Julie: put a link for Dan Siegel and the hand brain in there.

Philippa: Yeah, I think that often, children who do lots of talking and have got great language have learned a way to distract from being in the being is what I think, that they're in the knowing rather than the being. So I think, you see children that are in there who are very emotional and can't.

Manage these really big emotions, parents, schools, we'll talk about needing to help them [00:27:00] calm down or to regulate or to not be so angry. And really that's just that co regulation from the outside in, and they're showing you, they're saying, this is what my big feeling is, and this is how hard it is for me.

And I just don't know what to do with it. And so I'm going to show you. But there's another way of managing that, which is to ignore it and to pretend that it's not there, but it's still there and that what you do is you talk about it and, you use distraction and lots of really lovely words and lovely engagement and be really pleasing, whilst all the time ignoring all the feelings that you've got going on in your body and so you're in the knowing and not the being.

But I think. What fine for those children is it's like putting a lid on a volcano. You can do it for so long. And then there's an eruption. And what you find is that there's these big explosions. So rather than having them, two or three times [00:28:00] a day, where they're coming out.

at home, at school, or one or the other, they are really contained for a period of time and then you get this massive eruption. Because for all of us, there's only so long you can push those feelings down. Because they haven't had that co regulation and I think play is a really It's a really lovely way of helping children, whether they're, whether they're little at three or four, or whether they're, young, young people at 13, 14, 15, of being in the moment and being able to express whatever

Julie: Um,

Philippa: fuming. Because school [00:29:00] feel unfair or your parents haven't let you do something or you want to really do something and your therapist won't let you do something and you can be mad in play, you can be sad in play, you can, Do all those sorts of things.

And sometimes you practice out through a third thing, which we've talked about quite a bit, that this is what it's like to be sad. And this is what it's like to be hurt. And this is what it's like to have loss really, because children and, and parents have, have got loss sometimes. And that can be played out in play, I think.

 You can be in your cognitive brain, but actually it's so much more important to be in your being brain. It's trying to be in your whole brain so that you've got all three parts of your brain linked up, working together and responding in the way that they should be responding rather than, being triggered off and having to, put in the [00:30:00] survival, techniques really to manage. 

Julie: We're talking primarily about the brain there. also I'm aware when there are those gaps early development, that gaps in early regulation, gaps in early playfulness and relationship, it has a huge impact on the body as well. So it's not just the brain, the emotions, the cognitive that we need to think about, but it's also about actually how the body moves because we need our body be able to play. We need to have been moved. Our body needs to have been moved. We need to have had that opportunity to lie on our tummies, that opportunity to lift our necks, to move our shoulders off the floor. and to blow and to be able to crawl on the floor. We need to have all of that in place to be [00:31:00] able to relate as an older child. And this is something you've looked into a lot. You've done a lot of training with this. Do you want to say just a little bit more about that?

Philippa: Yeah, so Sarah Lloyd has developed something called the BUSS model, Building Underdeveloped Sensory Systems. And from my view, it's a really, amazing way to really think about when you've had those early life gaps. What impact does that have on our foundational motor systems? So I will put a link to it in the bio so people can go and read it.

Primarily, we need things to happen in utero and then once you're out, so you need to be carried by your parents because as you know, babies heads are all wobbly and then they start to gain control over it and then you get your, your neck muscles and then you can. So, if you just think, just let's just think about your neck, if you [00:32:00] get that through play, through, through being carried and through having tummy time and you just start to lift your head up, then when you go to school, you can hold your head up to look at the board.

You can hold your head up to look at friends. you can look at the teacher when, when you're being talked to. If you don't, then actually you're using lots of good energy to do that and your good energy isn't then being used for learning. And then fast forward that to GCSEs, what impact does that have?

And another example is crawling. You know, it's like a superpower because when you crawl, you're putting weight through your shoulders, into your hands, you're opening up all your hands so you can hold a pencil, so you can hold your cutlery, so you can write your name, you can write your dissertation, you don't drop the food on the floor, you actually get it to your mouth, and you're not a messy eater and aren't laughed at.

So very simple [00:33:00] thing. I often see on social media, and before this I used to think it was really cute, but once I did this training, it horrifies me now, where they say if your child doesn't crawl it doesn't matter, and they share all these little clips.

Beautiful, beautiful babies doing anything but crawling. And it was really cute until I really understood actually, Oh my gosh, these children really need to crawl because they really need what happens in their body, that development through crawling. It's the same with our tactile system.

It's the same with our oral system. So if babies are prop fed. What happens is they don't suck the bottle, the liquid goes into their mouth, and it runs into their tummy. So they don't develop their tongue muscles, their cheek muscles, their lip muscles. So then that, can impact speech, it can impact

Julie: Uh, Um,

Philippa: their diet because you don't want to eat really chewy things or really crunchy things so often there's gaps in so [00:34:00] many areas.

And then play might be avoided when they're on the playground because they can't do some of the things that their peers can do, or they push a little bit harder and they get blamed for hurting their friend and actually what they didn't know was how hard they were pushing,

Julie: Yeah,

Philippa: or so, so it has massive impacts if we don't have these early, early consistent caregivers that are going to help us develop all aspects of our life, really.

Absolutely.

Julie: development and the co regulation of the physical development. put together because then, you know, you could arrive at six, seven, eight, and your body and your emotions are developmentally behind your peers. And so that gap gets wider and wider because as [00:35:00] you said, you may be pushing, you may be having meltdowns, you may be messy with your food, your body and your emotions are not. with your peers. And so a lot of the work we do with parents and with the children we work with is to try and fill in some of those gaps. And we fill those gaps, not by sort of physio exercises, but through play, through blowing bubbles, through lying on our tummy and blowing feathers across a cloth by crawling from one end of the room to the other. punching bits of paper and screwing them up in our hands to throw them. For the child and the parent, it's just play. But behind that is there a lot of thinking and theory I've got to know this child and here are some of the gaps. I think might be around for this child.

Let's do some play particular [00:36:00] activities that are going to help boost that for that child and ultimately help them to have better relationships because we need our bodies and we need our emotions to be able to relate to others as well as learn and feel hopeful

Philippa: It's supporting the parents, isn't it, because they know they are the experts in their children

Julie: Absolutely.

Philippa: end of the day, they know their children, but sometimes they don't have the words to, they know what's going on, but they don't really understand what that is because they.

 They are the parent and why would you know that actually because they haven't had a bottle that this is going on or because that they didn't have a nappy changed regularly and consistently, this is, why these things possibly are happening. There are lots of other reasons why these things are happening, but I guess we're just focusing on [00:37:00] this bit.

And I guess part of what our role is and really why we are doing these podcasts is to help parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles and whoever it is to also gain the knowledge around. what they're already an expert in, which is their family

Julie: Um,

Philippa: actually that my kid is really struggling in school and he's really intelligent, but actually he's always getting sent out to class and he can't sit still. And to say, well, I'm wondering if, His body's working really hard to sit on his seat and he needs to use his legs because his legs have had to get really, really strong because he didn't have this, this, and this.

And then it's like, yeah, that makes perfect sense. What do I do? How do I do that? And then they can do it at home with support. They develop their own skills, don't they? And then they just flourish with it. So it's about [00:38:00] helping and supporting the child to play and then helping the parents or the people around the child, the young person to also think about how can I, build this in our everyday lives, really.

Julie: Hmm. And not see it as, you said, manipulating, controlling, resisting, being naughty, deliberately trying to sabotage. We hear a lot of that language and absolutely understandable that that language comes out because it's, difficult to be the adult around a child who's not doing the things that you might expect a child of that age to be doing.

It's really confusing and I think quite alarming and sometimes frightening also for the parent or the school teacher. Well, the TA in the classroom, it can be quite alarming to not understand the children that you're caring [00:39:00] for parenting. these episodes we're hoping will be over time, lots of different lenses look at. a child and their lives through always considering where play might be help, be part of the helping that child and that parent and that school to have an easier time. To, to

Silence. No. Silence.

and they've got themselves where they are, but sometimes they're using strategies that they don't need anymore or strategies because they weren't played with when they were little,

Silence.

and it is possible. To fill in those gaps. I

Philippa: Absolutely.

Julie: think we will always see the cracks. We'll always see that there was, an [00:40:00] absence, so often I, over a year, over two years of working with the family, begin to see that those gaps absolutely can be filled in. And that takes huge hard work and courage from both the parent and the child to get to that. But it is absolutely possible. Otherwise we wouldn't have kept going all these years. We'd have given up a long time ago.

Philippa: No, and I think it's a really good place to end. But again, you know, when I started at the beginning about saying it's just a privilege and to go on that journey with a family. However long or short it is, and see those changes in the hard work that, schools, parents, grandparents, family, friends around, children and young people put in, when sometimes it is really hard to keep going, but they do.

And you see the [00:41:00] gaps slowly beginning to fill in, you see the child sit on the parent's knee and be rocked and sung to, you see them, look at their parent for a moment of reassurance, whereas before they were totally independent or they will sit and let you put, their shoes on or they have been on holiday and they've had three good days and instead of. Seven days where they're just wishing they were all at home. That's just an honour I think, isn't it Julie? Every single day my heart just kind of builds up with amazingness that how amazing these children and families are really. So I suppose what we're saying is it's possible you just have to keep going Through sometimes really tricky times and keep playing keep filling in the gaps keep Asking and wondering and being curious and sticking in there and at some [00:42:00] point There's change.

So that brings us I think to the end of this episode because we've run out of time rather than because we've run out of things to say about it. So thank you for listening to this week's episode. If you've enjoyed it, please hit like and we'll see you next time.