Episode 3 Play and Pets

In this episode, Julie and Philippa ponder how pets and animals can at times help children, young people and adults. Whether this is in everyday life, therapy or their own homes. While also acknowledging that pets and animals can be unpredictable and even scary. 
They think about how this unpredictability can in itself be therapeutic and validating. Sharing their own experiences of pets and how they have been important in communicating with children and how they attune to the emotions and states of those around them.  

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Transcript

Ep 3 Play and Pets

Philippa: [00:00:00] Welcome to this week's episode with me, Philippa. 

Julie: And me, Julie. Today's episode is about play and pets. 

Philippa: So, Julie, this is something we often talk about when we're meeting, but in relation to your pets. You've got two lovely cats that I know, sometimes join some of your, therapy sessions, or just pop their head round, I've just been reading, about the significance of animals and how they can reduce stress and anxiety, both for children and with adults. And that kind of calming, stroking of pets can be, soothing for children 

 Can help them, to calm and be present in the moment. And I guess the other thing that I was thinking about is animals can [00:01:00] give unconditional love and support. During, times that are quite challenging and there's an emotional connection that sometimes, is easier for children and even adults, that is less demanding than with another human.

Julie: It's interesting because we have talked about this a lot and sometimes you've met my two cats because they appear on the Zoom screen demanding something from me. And I think for me, I find caring for them, making sure they're fed, they're clean, they're taken to the vets, all of those things.

I find that a wonderful, almost distraction from other things. And as you said, the soothing, the stroking, the hearing, the purr, all of that I find deeply regulating. So partly I have cats in my life because I grew up with a cat in our household and [00:02:00] always saw that cat as a companion and something to lean into and stroke and feel regulated by.

But when I think about how the cats have, in a sense, pushed themselves into the therapy sessions, that's not what I experienced with the children. So, if I can explain a little bit about the setup, I live in a house with some stairs, and my therapy room is effectively my front room. So, children always come in with the parent to the house.

They'll come into the hallway and even then there might be a cat that will sneak down the stairs. I've tried really hard to make sure the cats are out of the way, but I happen to have lots of doors that don't quite shut in my house. And so there is something about that companion bit that the children through their parents will often send me a [00:03:00] message on the way here and say, I want to, see this one, or I want to see that one.

There's something about being greeted at the door, not just by me, but by this little creature who is size wise closer to the child's size than me. I've never had a cat sat on the lap of a child. I've never had one of the cats really allowed themselves to be stroked by one of the children.

But what I have found is when a cat is invited in or sneaks into the room, they become part of the story of what we're doing. So I might be asked in a session to be a huge lion for a child. And quite often, one of the other cats is given the role of being the baby lion. So they become part of the story.

Or, one of the cats is very jumpy, [00:04:00] like some of the children. Very hyper regulated, very over the top, and vigilant. Would jump at a fast movement. And you've got children like that, that you work with. What I've found is it really slows the child down, not by them stroking the cat, because that's really not possible.

The cat won't allow them anywhere near. But I've said to them, think about, can I name the cats? We had a discussion about this confidentiality of my cats. Okay, Poppy and Tilly. So Poppy is the jumpy one. And what the children have been able to do, two of the children are particularly hyper regulated, really bouncy kids.

They move so slowly. They've found slow movement, slow breathing. They're desperate for the cat to stay in the room. And [00:05:00] so they've worked out the cues from another creature. They've moved really slowly. They've spoken slowly and quietly so that the cat remains in the room and close by. And I find that fascinating.

I've not read that in any book about animal assisted therapy and I'm not deliberately doing that. I'm not trained in it. And I'm very respectful of those who have done that training and use it within their therapy sessions. But I see the child making connection with another creature, another mammal, by regulating themselves in order to keep the relationship going, and picking up cues.

Because if they move too quickly, or if they shout, the cat is going to run out, or the cat might suddenly [00:06:00] jump, or hide. And so the child is quite wary of the cats. But they desperately want a relationship, so they're doing something with their own regulation to be able to keep that relationship going.

And for me, that can only be helpful in other relationships, whether it be with a dog, a cat, a spider, or a friend at school, or a parent, or a member of staff at school. That they learn to care for an animal. and keep connection. And I'm just very grateful to my two cats and my broken door, that's brought that about.

 It makes me think about, what is it with that relationship with an animal that, children can be more purposeful in their movements, can be more [00:07:00] purposeful and can tolerate that. More because actually uncertainty for lots of children of that jumpy flightfulness can be quite, scary can't it, but they know that your cats might be a little bit more jumping, a little bit, , flighty, if they make some noise or scare them.

But in some ways they can tolerate that. It sounds like much more than possibly in their everyday life and it makes me think about in my own life. We had a dog called Wallace who we absolutely loved and sometimes I would want to have a tricky conversation with my son. But I know or knew if I had raised it with him, it would have made him feel shame or sad, or we would have created a conflict or an upset [00:08:00] that I really didn't want to create.

But if I spoke to our dog, Wallace, And my son could hear the conversation that I had with Wallace. He could tolerate that. It was the same conversation that I wanted to have , with him, but I would wonder very gently with the dog about maybe what he was feeling when he maybe did a misbehavior or didn't, do something I'd asked him to do or, , Do something I'd asked him not to do and, he could tolerate me talking to the dog a lot more than he would ever have been able to tolerate me having that direct conversation with him.

Yeah. 

Philippa: And I remember once, this is just a little funny story. I remember once doing this city and he'd got really one of those high beds. He was upset and cross and I'm sitting on his bedroom floor and the dog's sitting with me and I'm talking to the dog and I'd been talking for about 20 minutes to the dog and eventually I had to say, [00:09:00] Well, he's, I've run out of things to say now.

And he popped his head up out of this high sleeper and said, it's all right, mom. I'm fine. I've been fine for the last 10 minutes. I just like to hear you talking. And that was the end of it. But had I attempted that in any other way, it would have been very difficult and we would have had a lot more conflict than doing it just through the dog.

It regulated him and then he came down and had a hug with the dog, had a hug with me and it helped to repair our relationship. And yeah, so it just seems that maybe with pets, children, maybe even adults , can tolerate things or manage things more. I don't know what your thoughts are around that, Julie.

Julie: Yeah, it's almost like the Primary connection. The direct connection is too live. It's too direct, it's too stimulating and possibly too shaming and too [00:10:00] difficult, but doing it via something else. In this case, a pet, the secondary route, themes much more tolerable. And I see that's another use.

of the cats in the room, or a way that they're used by the children, because they'll ask the cat questions, and they'll do their own pondering, and their own curiosities, and it's as though the cat is another person, another therapist in the room, or another parent, and they'll ask the cat questions that they wouldn't be quite ready to ask out loud.

to a grown up, and I've had children have conversations about toileting. Children have got difficulties with toileting, pooing, weeing, and they'll talk to the cats, and one of the cats, Poppy, has similar problems herself. So we had a whole [00:11:00] session talking about how bodies work and how difficult it can be if your body's not quite working properly.

They talk to the children about food and about sleep. and about friends, all the things that might be troubling them. I've had children get right close to one of the cats, not right too close that they'll jump off, not on their laps, because the cat hasn't wanted to do that, but they use the cat's brain almost, not that the cat has much of a brain in that sort of thinking sense.

But they use the cat as their thinking brain. And then sometimes I'll voice back what the cat is saying. In inverted commas, so the child, I don't know making some of this up, the child might say, oh, Poppy, I've got problems there's nobody at school who wants to play with [00:12:00] me.

 Often I'll ask the child's permission. Can I say what's in Poppy's head? We come off the stage, and I'll have a little whisper, and I'll say, yeah, you be Poppy. You say, right. Oh, if the child's called, let's say the child's called Philippa. Oh, Philippa.

 Poppy wants to say to you Poppy, you're telling me, oh, all right. So you want to say to , Philippa, Poppy's saying she has problems with finding friends sometimes too, and she remembers that from when she was very little and at Cat's school. None of the other cats outside wanted to play with her.

And she's thinking, do you feel as sad and worried as she used to feel? And then the child will then have this long conversation with the cat. And this is where almost the cat is offering them empathy and care. Whereas earlier in the session, the child might have been offering that empathy and care.

to the [00:13:00] cat by their slow movements, they sometimes bring in treats for the cat, talking gently with the cat, but then the cat is able to offer them something back. So yeah, with you and your son, you're talking to the dog in the way that is too difficult to talk directly to your child, but of course you know your child's listening in, and it sounds like he really loves the sound of your voice and just.

 Laying in that bed for ages. And then in the therapy room, what I see is the, child talking to the cat and me voicing what the cat is saying. But a bit like I might use with the puppet sometimes. So where the puppet becomes the third mind in the room. Me, therapist, child, client, puppet, dog, cat, the third [00:14:00] person in the room.

And I just find that so fascinating and I have to say so enjoyable for me. I love having the pets in the room, but I am also deeply respectful for any child and some definitely don't want the cats around. I'll make sure they're out. Some of the parents don't want them around. They're quite nervous of them.

Some are allergic. I'm, very, very careful about that. When the cats are in the room. But even for a child who's often wanted the cat in the room, may one week come in and say, Oh, Poppy's sitting in the room. I don't want her in today. That's a huge thing for a child to be able to say.

You know, when you're really little, you don't have much agency. You don't get many choices. And I'll say, Oh, you don't want Poppy to be in today. I'll put her out. Thank you for letting me know. [00:15:00] And I think sometimes the child has had to build up to that, to be able to voice their preference. And possibly when it's different to how it's been for months and months before, And it might come as a surprise to me that I'll then put the cat out and sometimes the child will then sit on the sofa exactly where Poppy is sat and go, I know why Poppy was in.

I'll go, Oh, but you wanted Poppy out, but you know why she was in? Yes. She's warmed up my seat for me. And then we'll call. Thank you, Poppy. So the relationship is still there, but today, I don't want the cat in the room. And the child is able to say that, and I think that in itself is so powerful. To say, no, I don't want the pet.

It's not for me today. Will you take her out? Or [00:16:00] trusting that I'll pick that up. So it's, yeah, it's been an unintended new development in home practice. And I wish I had done it years ago, , work from home and slowly, just by accident really, have pets in the room. Would never have planned that. 

 I often ask this question. If I'm doing a workshop or something, are you a cat person or a dog person? 

Philippa: I have to say, Julia, I'm really not an animal person. So you'd be, hands down, you wouldn't have your hand up right. Very nice. When I was growing up, we had cats and dogs, and I've always had, cats and dogs , but they're not my favourite thing.

I like them from a [00:17:00] distance and mine, like, you know, lots of things in life. I loved my dogs, and I loved my cats when I had them. I don't have any now. But what I find is that they're. Unpredictable and they get really close into my space and I struggle with that as well.

When it's mine, then I can, cope with them sitting on my knee and all those sorts of things. And I've set the boundaries, of what is acceptable and what isn't just like any of us do , but when you go to somebody else's house, they might love their pets so much and they don't mind them walking all over them and sitting on them or on their shoulders and that's okay for them.

It's one is I am highly allergic to them. The menopause has created , Massive allergies, but I can take Piriton. I've go to lots of, families and friends who've got pets and the [00:18:00] ones that I go regularly and they just sit. So I've got a friend who does lots of fostering , of cats and dogs and rabbits and everything really.

And she's got two little dogs that, she's. fostered and then kept. And they just come and they kind of have a little moment where they fight about who's going to sit on my knee and who's going to sit at the side of me, but then they just stay there. They don't move. They just sit on my knee and they sit next to me and I'm fine with that.

You go to other places. I remember going and visiting a family when I was, doing social work and walking in the door and they had this great big Massive kind of mountain dog came running down the hallway, jumped up, paws on my shoulders, and I landed on my bottom. And it's that unpredictability, and , cats come really close to your face sometimes, don't they?

They like, come up and they want, and I'm like, Oh no, [00:19:00] just, just, that is my space and I really don't want you to be that close to me. Yeah, so, it's not that I don't like them, I love looking at them , it's the unpredictability and, being in my space, but I know that, people just absolutely love their dogs and cats and rabbits, whatever it is, and they're just really such an important part of their family.

So again, that's a really hard conversation to have. Can you just get your cat off me? 

Julie: Yeah, but having a voice, being able to have agency, being able to say, this is my boundary, and I can see that's different to your boundary. And sensing the different culture of how different families interact. Care for, live with animals and how treating one dog this way is not how [00:20:00] you treat the next dog or the next cat or the next rabbit.

Really getting to know the subtle differences between how one animal relates and another animal relates. And that can be so confusing for adults as well as children. Oh, I do this with this dog, so I can do it with that dog. It doesn't work. And it can feel like rejection. It is unpredictable. And I'm also wondering when you're talking about that word unpredictable, how many of the children we work with are also very unpredictable.

You can be sitting cuddled, , in a sense, stroking them one minute and the next minute They're biting, or they've run off, or they're terrified, and they're so unpredictable, especially if it's a child who's experienced trauma or a child who has moved family several times. And they're kind of lost in what is the culture of this family.[00:21:00] 

How do I fit in with this family? What are my boundaries? What are their boundaries? And I wonder if in some ways having animals as part of the therapy or in the foster home, in the adopter's home, in the family home, is like a mirror for the child in some way. I'm seeing another creature, I happen to be human, they happen to be a cat, another creature who's also unpredictable.

And in some ways it's an ally. they recognize this unpredictability. And also, as you were talking there, thinking about the very deep relationship some children make with the pet. And I've seen when children sometimes have moved, say, from foster home into an adoptive home, their first relationship has been with the family pet.

The family pet becomes their secure base. [00:22:00] It's the pet that they go to. So I remember, working as a therapist with newly adopted children. I've maybe worked with them in foster care first, and then I meet them again a few weeks later when they've moved into their forever family, in their adoptive family.

And I've so often seen the child, when I come in the door, they're a bit shy, it's a bit weird, I'm in this new house, They're still them, I'm still me, but the person, the object they go to, is the family pet. I'll often find them curled up in the corner with the dog. Not running to the adopter, and that can be heartbreaking for the adopter.

You go, oh, but I want her to want to cuddle up with me when she's a bit scared, when she's a bit puzzled. You know, attachments, the cure base, all of that. , we see it enacted when there is [00:23:00] stress, when there is a perceived danger. So I walk in the door, it's a bit weird for the child. Ah, the child goes to the dog, not their new dad.

And that's absolutely heartbreaking, but it makes sense because in some ways the dog is closer in size. There may have been a dog in the foster carer, family. And I don't think we can predict where secure bases are formed. We can have a secure base with anybody in our life. It doesn't always have to be a parent.

Most of us it has been. We can create a secure base with a teacher at school, with a cousin, with a friend, with a neighbor. And I see children who make their first secure base. with a pet. One of the ways we both work is doing Theraplay, where we have the parent and the child in the room together, isn't it?

And we create a [00:24:00] playful set of activities, to bring the two together. There's two families I can think of where the dog has been part of the Theraplay sessions. The dog has been in the middle, with me, the child, the parent. , the child has needed the dog to be part of the session, to begin with.

It's not in the book, but we could write the book, of how to include a pet in theraplay. I've become more and more curious about it since it's begun to happen in my own practice. 

Philippa: I suppose what I wonder is if pets feel like they're less judgmental, that if a child makes a mistake or they feel like they've made a mistake, , even as adults, really, your cat, your dog, they might in a moment, be a little bit shocked or a little bit, .

scared, but [00:25:00] they tend to generally come back without lots of words because they don't do the words. They don't do the, why did you do this? Or you were wrong doing that. They might show you that there was a little bit of an upset or a little bit of a rupture in that relationship, but they genuinely just come back.

And also with a dog and a cat or whatever animal it is, if you've done something at school or at work. Pet doesn't know anything about that, do they? And you can just come in and you can just be with them, and they don't hold this other stuff about you , that's happened. Whereas, , whether it's rightly or wrongly, as a child, you assume often that your parents know all your misdemeanors that, that have gone on.

Or, for some of the children that we work with, they feel like they're unlovable and they feel like they're [00:26:00] unworthy, even though they're 100 percent or not. And they often feel like things are their fault, even when They've got no control over it. And I guess as adults we can feel that too, but I wonder if with a pet, they don't feel that the pet knows that yet.

Julie: Yeah. I, I agree with you that the pet doesn't, judge doesn't hold a grudge, doesn't. Know when I've made a mistake, when I've done something wrong, and like every human being, I make mistakes at work, in my relationships, in my family, I do things wrong.

The cat doesn't know about that, but I think my experience recently has been that The cats really do sense when something is disturbed in me. So, I've had some medical issues recently and [00:27:00] the cats really picked that up. One of them ended up, with cystitis and urinary problems. Her back legs went.

She really had quite a collapse because I was in a collapsed state. And there was a lot of mirroring of my state and my stresses going on in this cat. I think it really affected her whole body and her whole demeanor. I'm now back and up and, moving, and so is she. There's been some sort of mirroring, of the stress and anxiety that I experienced being passed into this cat.

Philippa: So I wonder though, for a child as well, to have somebody attuned to you in that way. So if you walk through the door and you're feeling sad from school and the dog just knows that, and they come and give you a lick and a hug, and you don't have to use any words, you know, [00:28:00] you haven't got your parents saying what's wrong, Tell me about that.

You've just got this, this lovely comforting creature that can pick up on that attunement in your body and just be with you, just sit with you, so if you're anxious, they can, let you stroke them and then they know those kinds of, nonverbal cues that, Often, certainly for the children that we work with, they haven't experienced that real attuned, connective care and maybe that's what they're experiencing.

Julie: Yeah, that is another creature picking up the non verbal through their smell, through their, the child's movements, through their body language. through their voice tone, even if there are no words coming. What will often happen, and I find myself doing this as an adult, is to ask [00:29:00] what's wrong, when actually, if I just pause for a few seconds, the child is already showing me their whole body.

The speed at which they're moving or not moving, it tells me so much, which is much more like we would experience with a baby or a toddler, where there are no words. But there are lots of communication, there are a lot of cues that are coming our way. And of course a dog or a cat, another animal, is perhaps picking that up in a way that has grown up.

So I think we move into words way, way, way too quickly. And that can be so frustrating for the child. I think it's frustrating for us adult to adult. To have to explain what we're feeling when, if we know somebody really well, they pick it up and there don't need to be any words. And that, for me, my experience of that is, [00:30:00] that is the best gift.

If somebody picks up how I'm feeling and lets me know that they've picked that up without me having to say anything or perhaps them having to say anything. We just get each other. And I think pets do that. Not all pets. I'm aware as we're saying this, some people may well have switched off after the first few minutes because pets are not their thing.

 People have had scary experiences with their own pets or somebody else's pets. They're allergic, they've been bitten, they've had to have a dog or a cat put down in tragic circumstances. Pets are absolutely not for everybody. So I just want to acknowledge that, that what we're getting quite enthused by is not going to be everybody's experience.

But there will be more episodes that will have other things. But we did think we wanted to dedicate a whole [00:31:00] episode to play, animals, pets, and, how we see them, feel them, listen to them, and are listened to by them. 

Philippa: This is a great place to end, but one of the things that, I think, for me, it's really brought up is the understanding of non verbal communication and how we do that.

And I definitely think that's a, at least one or two episodes, all in itself is that non verbal communication and that pets are probably all, really good at doing the non verbal communication that often, like you say, We need as adults, but definitely children and young people, need us to be more attuned to what their body, what their posture, what their tone, what their facial expressions are saying, rather than relying.

all the time on cognitive verbal communication. And [00:32:00] I just think, yeah, we'll definitely be covering those in further episodes. But I think this is a good place to end this episode. 

Julie: Do you? I do. And I think there is a cat, in fact, scratching at the door this very minute. So I did manage to close the door.

But I think the two cats deserve a few treats. I'll go and uh, go and regulate myself and feed the cats. Okay. 

Philippa: So thank you for listening to this episode of pondering play and therapy. If you've liked it, please hit the like button and follow us on social media.