Episode 2 Play and Safety

Julie and Philippa ponder can play help us find our way back to safety if we are feeling unsafe. Do we need to be safe to play? They ponder relational, physical and psychological safety in play.
They wander their way through play and safety in the therapy room, in families, with toddlers, adolescents and older people. 

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Transcript

EP 2 Play and Safety

Philippa: [00:00:00] / Welcome to this episode with me, Philippa. 

Julie: And me, Julie. This week, we thought we would ponder can play help us feel safe and do we need to feel safe in order to play? So, Philippa, this idea about play and safety primarily came from you to start with. Tell me where that idea came from.

What prompted that? 

Philippa: Well, it was from, some training I've been on. It was called Compassion Focused, Therapy. And it was an introduction. It was a three day training and it , was really interesting really about how we need to be compassionate to ourselves and linked with mindfulness and, linking to lots of things.

But one of the talks that the presenters gave was around play and how [00:01:00] play can help with, our nervous system and helping us to feel safe because. When we are feeling stressed, overwhelmed, scared, worried, we're in our survival brain. So that part of our brain that says the world's not safe, the world's not okay, I might die, or I'm at least under severe threat.

And really, you're just organized to keep yourself safe and keep yourself, alive really and being playful at those times, might help us to maybe come out of , that state or,, might be more difficult. And I guess that's what I was thinking is, can we play at times when Maybe we are feeling unsafe psychologically, physically, in a relation relationally?

Yeah, that's good. [00:02:00] Yeah, go for it. , where does play fit in all that? Because we know that play happens all over the world, in all different manner of places, and, There's not always complete safety in those places. So that's really what I was thinking about. 

Julie: So thinking, see if I've got this right, thinking about if I'm in a stressful, but, stressful situation and even a dangerous situation.

Can play be possible? Primarily can play help me get to a more safe position? 

Philippa: Yeah. And it might not be Physically help you might it, but, emotionally it might be able to help you, or relationally it might be able to help you. So, that's one part of it. And the other part is, can you even play if you're in An unsafe place.

I guess one of the things [00:03:00] that, , we often see on social media is, children maybe experiencing war and, and really extreme, environmental factors, famine. Desolation, but you all see children playing with a football or skipping or , there is a form of play.

And I suppose that just made me think about what do those children need in order to play in a very physically unsafe environment? Mm mm. Yeah, , so it's the two. How does play help us in those things? And how can we play when we're in those moments? Mmm, 

Julie: so thinking about even if it's not a physical danger, if it's a psychological danger where my mind, my body, everything about me, my whole nervous system is saying I'm unsafe.[00:04:00] 

I'm unsure. I'm under threat. I might have all my physical needs met. 

I might 

have a home. I might have food. I might have family. I might have an education, but still, I might psychologically feel unsafe. 

Is 

it possible to play in that situation? And yeah, I'm thinking about lots and lots of children that, I've worked with and you and I both work as therapists with children.

We both know that we have a lot of play in our everyday lives, within our families, within our, with our friends. But I'm thinking about particularly many, many children that I've met in a therapy situation who are physically safe. 

They 

might be in a therapy room in their school and their school is perceived by them to be a safe place.

So physically [00:05:00] their environment is safe. but I've experienced their psychological danger that they feel when they come into the therapy room or when they're in the playground, when they're in their classroom and everything feels very, very unsafe and overwhelming for them. And our question then is, can those children Mind moments of play even when they're in psychological danger.

Philippa: Yeah, 

Julie: and yeah thinking back to lots and lots of children We certainly I've experienced the children who come in And it's, I've hardly turned around from the door and they're in and they're playing. I've not met them before. This is their first time in the therapy room. And what I usually say to children when they come in is, if it was you, Philippa, I'd be saying, Philippa, this is your time to play.

and talk in just about any way you like. [00:06:00] Shall we see what happens? Before I've even got that on my lips, they're playing. So I have those children, and maybe you know some of those children as well, but I've also experienced many children who even coming across the doorway into the room is deeply distressing for 

them.

Very, very uncomfortable, and it might take several weeks for them to get used to it. In the door and just thinking about how, how I try to create psychological safety for them just by my presence, just by breathing, just by keeping the door open. Sometimes I come in and I sit in the room and the child may just be hovering at the doorway for 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes sometimes.

And then May step over the [00:07:00] threshold. That's them showing me how unsafe they feel, and me giving them the space and the trust that says, you can be okay in this room, but I'll wait for you. This is your space. So I don't know if you've experienced that with some of the children you work with. You work in a different way to me quite often, but children, families who come into a therapy situation where they're feeling unsafe.

And how does play fit with that? 

Philippa: Yeah, I think, I think, it makes me think about it. And we've talked before when we meet about the importance , of the third thing, which is a Winnicott, if people want the theory behind it, but it's that, that there's a transitional object, really.

So, we've got a big slinky in our reception a few steps [00:08:00] and sometimes it's just sitting and letting the slinky go down the steps and just celebrating the achievement of the slinky, which indirectly celebrates the achievement of the child. It might be just sitting and noticing.

 The trainers or the, something that's maybe not directly connected , to the child. And I think if we think about toddlers and young people, in our everyday lives, often you wait for that. young person, the child to come to you, don't you?

You might kind of help that along by finding something that you think they might be interested in, whether it's a book or a car or a doll or, something like that, that they then can kind of be interested in this kind of third thing that then allows them, and I wonder, about that, the importance of [00:09:00] respecting that space, if that creates some safety when it's an unknown.

And I wonder if the third thing, when there's a known and the environment is, is, is, is unsafe. If the third thing, like maybe the football or the skipping rope, if that kind of represents the relational safety. 

Julie: But, but I might be relating to the object. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: And then I can possibly relate to that object with somebody else.

So I might skip on my own and that's also play. I can play with the ball on my own. And that's me finding some psychological safety with an object and with myself. And then, so I would call that play. I can play music on my [00:10:00] own. I can play with a ball on my own. I can play with a piece of blue tap on my own or a piece of bubble wrap.

That's relating to myself through play. And certainly I can find things like that very calming, 

very 

regulating. If I'm in a stressful situation to have something in my hands that, that I create and play with, but then we're also thinking about how we get relational play going in a state of. Either physical or emotional danger, unsafety, if that's a word.

And 

how the object, that third object, can help create the relationship, can create the play. So relating to myself, relating to the object, but also relating to you through the object can be, can feel much, much safer. So the two people [00:11:00] involved, then relating directly, what we sometimes talk about as primary intersubjectivity, big long 

word, 

but it's, it's like just the direct relating.

And that can be so difficult and so threatening and so painful, certainly for a lot of the children and families that we work with. And so certainly from what I understand of the way you work as well, is that having an intersubject. in between, or an object that is the focus of everybody's attention, can really allow the relationship to get off the ground, because it feels less threatening to relate through an object.

So through blowing bubbles, through throwing a ball, through, as I've experienced, , a car coming across the room, , I send a car out towards a child, who's maybe had their back to me for most of their session [00:12:00] and, or for several weeks has sort of sat in silence in the room, they've made it into the room, but I sense that child might be still feeling very, very uncomfortable.

And sometimes I will risk sending something across the room, almost like as an invitation to say, I'm here. And so often what I've met, whether it's a ball or a car, something that moves, that I've gently sent across the room as an invitation, so often that has been returned to me. And then we've set up a dialogue, I don't know, the car, the ball, whatever, going across the room.

And the child gradually feeling the safety with me, the containment of me and the room, and sends the object back, and we start that dialogue, start that playfulness together. [00:13:00] But I know how slowly and carefully I need to go with that child, so that I don't add to their distress, add to their psychological distress, by making.

therapy also. I was going to say making therapy painful, but I think it is also quite painful. I don't know if you have the experience of I say, oh, , I work with children as a therapist through play. And so often I'll hear, oh, that's nice. That's lovely. And I just want to say, gosh, play isn't always safe.

Well, I'm hoping play is always safe, but it's certainly not always comfortable. I think for many of the children and families we work with, play can feel really weird. 

Philippa: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's hard and I think [00:14:00] that's something we've talked about is that play and I guess I wonder if that's part of what, , being safe in play is, is that you can have a whole range of emotions that actually you can be sad in play and you can be angry in play and you can be, , joyful in play and excited but there's, there's a range of it and I suppose it makes me, me also think about in families, how those emotions in play can be really helpful, especially if you've got teenagers or young people, that are experiencing, , change and thinking about their identity.

 It's a really hard time. , the teenage years, it's a, , a great time, but , it can be a hard time as well, can't it? And how How play can help some of those emotions, whether it's in a therapy space, whether it's in a home or even whether it's, , in a peer group, , playing sports or stuff like that, just to get [00:15:00] maybe rid of some of those, those angst that you get, or, , the crossness that you might have with your parents.

How, how can play support us to do these less kind of what are often seen as negative emotions, but we like to think that actually all emotions are is equally valid and is equally important and play needs to make space for all of those, don't they? Yeah. And I just think It can be helpful to sit with those or to use play to, to express them or to get rid of, rid of them, , help you to regulate back from them.

Julie: Yeah, and I think what you're saying there, a chance to almost play with my emotions playfully, being able to try out different ways of expressing things. Yeah. to do that more safely in a play [00:16:00] situation. I'm even thinking about playing a piece of music. , I could play something very, very sad and poignant in music and I know that it's going to resolve.

I know it's maybe got a melody and it's going to rise and it's going to fall and I can express that in music. in a way that I might not be able to do just by talking with somebody. So I'm thinking about playing with some of the, the members of my family. Some of us play musical instruments and I feel deeply connected to my nieces or my brother or others in my family when I'm making music with them.

And I wouldn't express that feeling just sitting, having coffee and talking with them. But when we get our instruments out and we play, something [00:17:00] can be expressed that is beyond words. And I wonder about that also in sport, in, , just playing around with an idea, , even us working together to do this podcast.

There are times when, for me, it feels very unsafe, what we're doing. We've talked about this a lot. You're feeling in a much more safe position. I'm feeling in a much less safe position. But we keep meeting and we keep playing with the ideas. How are we going to do this? Pressing buttons on the computer we've never pressed before.

Ha ha ha. 

and how by playing I can come to safety. That I don't have to, I mean our original question was, do I have to be safe in order to play?

I'm wondering whether we do, and whether play in itself, [00:18:00] playfulness, even though it can be scary, it can be sad, it can be over exciting, play in can ring us. to a state of safety. Yeah. 

Philippa: And I wonder, I suppose it makes me think about several things really. So one is, , just thinking about how , playfulness can, can help you to regulate, , just being sensory play, , if you're a toddler having rough and tumble with your, your parents, how that can actually help our body to understand what's going on and, and what we need and what we don't need.

And so we move from a place of, I've maybe been feeling unsafe being overwhelmed by our emotions or overwhelmed by by the environment we're in or the what we perceive as a lack of need. So we're not going to have these biscuits before [00:19:00] lunch and we are hungry and our lunch has been prepared. So we're really cross about that because we feel like our needs aren't being met and that's when you're a little person that's quite an unsafe place to be isn't it when you're feeling hungry but actually being playful and either rough and tumble or you know just helping them to chop food or stuff like that helps them to to one be able to know um, Actually, I can manage these big feelings.

It's, it's actually okay. And I've got somebody alongside me who's helping me, me do this. And now I'm going to get my needs met and, and, and I eat. So it's, it's a tool for, for helping children, young people, teenagers. know that these big feelings are survivable and they're survivable in a, in a, in a way that feels containing for them, maybe because there's, there's something else along, whether it's, whether it's [00:20:00] another person or whether it's a third thing like music or like football, or, , there's something that, that is, is helping them.

So it made me think about that. The other thing it made me think about was, about distraction, , so one is about moving from unsafe to safe, so that actually we're feeling unsafe and we can use play to help us move to a place where maybe we feel a little bit more safe or there's something around that's, that's helping us, , that, that relational component with whatever it is, is creating more safety for us.

But I wonder if there's a part where actually this, the unsafe ness If that's a word, remains. Yeah, so it's going to remain, it's not going to go, but play can provide a moment of relief. from it. So there's a moment where you can just be in the moment and not, not [00:21:00] kind of immersed in what's going on around or inside or with, but there's just this moment of interaction with another person, , with a toy, with a piece of music, with a, whatever it is, but there's, there's something that just gives a moment of relief.

Yeah, you can be safe in that moment even if you're not safe Yeah. , completely, completely or in the how old, does that make sense? 

Julie: Yeah. It's, like, I mean, we think of at school in the UK, we call our recesses, we call them break times. , it gives us a break from what might be much more difficult for some children, some children.

It's not sometimes break time is the most difficult time for some children, but yeah, having. a playful moment as a distraction from perhaps a situation that is not going to change. A [00:22:00] child or an adult living in a dangerous household where there is the risk of violence, where there is the risk of a breakdown, where there is a family member living with an illness, that is not going to go away.

It's not going to be relieved. But having a moment of playfulness within that day can be huge for that child, for that family member. And I, I'm thinking, some of the other therapists that I help consult with and supervise work with families who've experienced domestic abuse. And some are still living in that situation.

And we talk a lot about when the child comes for therapy, Oh, lots of these children coming for therapy who have experienced severe, [00:23:00] traumatic, violent situations in their household. Don't bring that into the therapy room. We've become very curious about that and the goals of the Referrers the goals of the funders might all be to do with We want this child to be able to have a place to process what has happened to them But lo and behold many of these children seem to come into their therapy situations And not want any of that to come into the room.

They want to play. They want to be enjoyed. They want to have 45, 50 minutes of not thinking about that, not bringing that into the room. And we've been sort of tussling with, so is that the therapy that they need? But 

we 

work in a very child centered way, which says this is your space to do and say just about anything you like and see what happens, [00:24:00] for the child to bring what they absolutely need.

And what I'm seeing and what I'm wondering about is actually what those children need is an hour a week to be with somebody who knows what's happened, who's acknowledged I know. big bad thing that has happened. A parent has died. Uh, a, a sibling is, has got a terminal illness. I know the big bad thing in your life.

Your grownups have let me know about that. What do you want to do? Oh, you want to play snakes and ladders. You want to play hide and seek. You want to play doll's houses without the traumatic story. And. I just find that so, I find it so interesting, but I find it so hopeful that in great distress a child has found a way of inviting a safe adult into [00:25:00] playfulness and, I have , a memory of some children who will say things like, I'll say, I've really enjoyed playing with you today because I genuinely have enjoyed, I felt pleasure.

So, sometimes they'll say things like, , I really enjoy you enjoying me is kind of what they're conveying because everybody around them is, oh, terrible things have happened to you. Oh, you're living in this horrible situation. Oh, poor you. And. They've been given permission in the therapy room to be enjoyed, to still be funny, to still be daft, to still muck around, and I can see the sense of relief on their faces.

But it's not the therapy I was expecting to do with them. I expected them to bring their trauma into the room, [00:26:00] and I have to respect that. To go with what that child feels they are able to do and want to do. They want to be enjoyed. They want to love. 

Philippa: when you were talking about that, I was thinking about again, teenagers in a family home, and maybe that's because I've had teenagers.

And that, that can be a time, I think, for lots of parental relationships where there's a lot more conflict. And that it can feel like it's all conflict, it's all shouting and nagging and and I know not all, all relationships are like that but teenagers. It's their time in life to go out and start to, to make, , connections with their peer groups move for independence and, and that for everybody creates a disjointedness.

And I suppose what made me think about was that, that [00:27:00] they still, Also like the child who's coming to therapy still need to be enjoyed and they still need to be delighted in and they Still need to know that their parents or their adults Are still amazed by them and interested in them And that actually for parents I wonder if you also still need to know that there is this connection that you've had when they were a toddler or maybe when they're in that kind of middle age, age of childhood.

And I wonder if there's moments of play that can happen, with teenagers that brings that same sense for both the parents of actually have, , we still do have that relationship. , and knowing and trusting that all the stuff you've been putting in there is still in there.

You just finding a new way forward. And for the teen and the adolescent, there's that bit of, okay, my parents are still interested in me. They are still enjoyed with me. They don't just nag me to clean my [00:28:00] room and, , do my homework and get in on time and don't use my vape or whatever it is that, that's, that's going on.

That, It can bring those moments of delight for both the therapist and the child, the adolescence and the parent, I guess for grandparents and having toddlers babies, they get the delight of. Having that again when their children, are now adults.

So, so there's these moments, I guess, of delight that break from the, oh gosh, this is really hard. 

Julie: Yeah, a respite, just a moment, even if it's just five minutes. of playing, , with an older person in the family, perhaps who has dementia, or cannot connect in ways that they've connected in the past. But finding a way of connecting, whether it's through song, sometimes a song can [00:29:00] spark off a connection 

out of 

confusion, again, like snap or dominoes, where the rules are fairly straightforward and maybe remembered from a time before dementia, and then to be able to enter into that again, to find those 10, 15 minutes of connection.

with somebody, who isn't able to join in with sort of social play and understand conversations and the sort of, the bubbliness of a, of a family or a care home or a hospital or wherever they're living, but can connect through one tiny little moment in a game, or just passing, like I do with those cars across the room with children, passing a balloon or a ball across to somebody else.

that that can take somebody who's perhaps living with The [00:30:00] confusion of something like dementia can take them out of that distress and confusion into a moment of connection through play and still be, as you said, I love that word, to be delighted in. Is that not what we're all after in the end? To be enjoyed and delighted in by at least one other human being or a pet.

Which is the next deficit. 

Philippa: Yeah, and that's a great place, I think, to end this podcast. But I think that what we're feeling and, we're only experts in our own lives. We're not experts in other people's lives. But what I'm thinking that we've come to the conclusion of is that play can provide safety, even if it's just for moments, it can provide relational safety.

It can provide moments , of safety , in places where. You're not, safe in an overall situation, but you can [00:31:00] have some psychological safety in a moment with a third thing or even relation, relationary. So yeah, I don't know if you want to sum it up any better than that, Julie, but as we come to an end.

Julie: Well, this is what happens every time we ponder these things. Just to let our listeners know, we do have a script, but we never stick to it. And every time we've recorded this one, we've had a few false starts with this one. Every time it's been quite different. But I kind of like where we've got to today.

Especially the kind of respite part of play. That it's okay to play and laugh and joke. Even in dire circumstances, that we need humour. Maybe humour would be another episode, but the next episode we're going to start thinking about animals and play and pets and play and pets and play and therapy. Anyway, we'll save that up for next time.

Philippa: [00:32:00] Okay. So thank you for listening to Pondering Play and Therapy.